Advice on 4 vs 2 stroke maintenance costs

[Rob Silver]

Couple things with the E-tec. They're probably the cleanest "green" motors with a 3 star CARB rating. The e-tec have what I'd say is some of the strongest pistons in a factory motor, some kind of NASA grade aluminum. They even have a NASA patent number on the piston. If your setup to run xd 100 and you run regular oil and a 50:1 mix in your tank in a pinch like suggested your still going to under oil the motor and possibly do damage because the E-tec is direct injected meaning the gas never travels through the crankcase like a standard 2 stroke outboard. They have oil injection in key locations in the crankcase to keep the crank and rods lubed. I've read that the e-tec hardly use any oil in the first place. I'd guess it would be less then what you burn now with your mercury. Probably can't go wrong with any motor you choose. I'm just a 2 stroke fan.

Does this mean that since XD 100 is a little harder to come by, I should just use the usual stuff so that "a pinch" never occurs? I can live with that.

My quest to find my repower still continues though. Top of the list for the 4-strokes is the $1900 difference.....however, maintenance seems to be the equalizing factor given that both motors will need impeller/water pump replacements, lower case oil change and the regular maintenance each outboard requires -- and the ETEC self winterizes, will get 300 hours before a "scheduled maintenance" and has more torque.

I am glad I still have 2 months to decide since the prices quoted will hold until the end of March.

 

[Pappy]

One thing I really do not care for on the 4-stroke engines is the messy oil change procedure. Really messy!
Remove the oil filter and the filter drains all over the place in the motor pan forcing a clean-up. Before you can clean it up the oil is drooling all over the mid-section as it is draining out of the pan through the drains.
The crankcase oil drain locations on the side won't leave you with warm fuzzies either and normally drools down the mid-section at some point. Not bashing them by any means as coming up with a great alternative would be difficult and expensive.
On the Etec, I could not stand to run the same gearcase oil for 300 hours. It would be changed at 20 and seasonally after that.

 

[RiverBottomOutdoors]

One thing I really do not care for on the 4-stroke engines is the messy oil change procedure. Really messy!
Remove the oil filter and the filter drains all over the place in the motor pan forcing a clean-up. Before you can clean it up the oil is drooling all over the mid-section as it is draining out of the pan through the drains.
The crankcase oil drain locations on the side won't leave you with warm fuzzies either and normally drools down the mid-section at some point. Not bashing them by any means as coming up with a great alternative would be difficult and expensive.
On the Etec, I could not stand to run the same gearcase oil for 300 hours. It would be changed at 20 and seasonally after that.

It is messy. Take a piece of card board and bend it to form a spout. Put it under the filter and stuff some shop rags around it to hold it in place. This will redirect the oil that comes out when you take the filter off. Could also buy one of those pumps.

 

[Pappy]

One thing I really do not care for on the 4-stroke engines is the messy oil change procedure. Really messy!
Remove the oil filter and the filter drains all over the place in the motor pan forcing a clean-up. Before you can clean it up the oil is drooling all over the mid-section as it is draining out of the pan through the drains.
The crankcase oil drain locations on the side won't leave you with warm fuzzies either and normally drools down the mid-section at some point. Not bashing them by any means as coming up with a great alternative would be difficult and expensive.
On the Etec, I could not stand to run the same gearcase oil for 300 hours. It would be changed at 20 and seasonally after that.

It is messy. Take a piece of card board and bend it to form a spout. Put it under the filter and stuff some shop rags around it to hold it in place. This will redirect the oil that comes out when you take the filter off. Could also buy one of those pumps.

Unfortunately....I apparently do this a little more often than you may realize and on a lot of different engines. On some 4-strokes one of the lower pan halves has to be removed to even get to and remove the oil filter. Word to the wise ....check service points before making a final dedision!
In almost all cases you cannot make a cardboard spout. The filter is usually at or below the top of the motor pan and oil won't run uphill. Pretty much, whatever comes out of the filter is going to make a mess. Good thing the EPA hasn't looked at the process and the aftermath!
Draining the crankcase? At a busy shop a vacuum pump on a 4-stroke outboard is too slow. May be able to get away with it at home though.

 

[turbotodd]

The smaller motors usually don't have to remove the pans for filter access. At least not any of the Yamaha's I've messed with. In all of those, it's a lot less mess than one would think, if you follow this suggestion. When changing the filter, let the motor sit overnight before your oil/filter change. Replace the filter BEFORE starting the engine. It will allow a good bit of oil to drain back into the engine during the time it sits. This is nice on the 25hp motors (and even the F30/F40/F50, F70's, etc). To effortlessly remove the oil without any mess, pick up an evacuator. I use a Mityvac MV7300 which is pneumatic, but they also have a manual version (non-pneumatic) that works better, IMO. Pump it up, put your evacuator tube down the dipstick hole, turn the valve on and let it suck. Zero mess. Some question if it gets all the oil out. I tested it on both versions of the Yam 25 4 stroke, the F30/F40, the F50's, F70, F90, F100, F150, VF150, F15, F20, F9.9 (those are the ones that come to mind, I'm sure I've done others). After evacuating all I can get out of the dipstick hole, I'd pull the drain plug out of the back of the motor. Nothing came out. Maybe an honest drop or two.

I actually bought a pneumatic venturi from Mityvac (the part that creates the suction) and creatively put it on an old air tank with some fittings and tubes attached to it. It holds 7 gallons. At work I'm constantly doing oil changes on lawn mowers and tractors, and this works well for "production" style stuff where I'm doing 10 per day. Only have to empty it once maybe twice depending on the equipment I'm working with.

I've got a manual evacuator here at the house that I use for boat motors. It is also useful for many other things, such as sucking the gear oil out of the mowing deck gearbox on the lawn mower, rear and front differential fluid changes (no mess!), trans fluid changes (awesome for this!), change the fluid in the transfer case without removing the drain bolt that's always seized, even used it to pull a vacuum on certain solenoids and actuators to test their operation. It has a million uses in even a small shop like what I have here, just a homeowner garage type deal that I use to work on all my own stuff. I also use it to suck bad fuel out of in-hull tanks. Saves a ton of time there!


Here is the manual version. The pneumatic is exactly the same but you just hook up an air hose to it instead of pumping it. A small pancake compressor will run it just fine, and in fact that is what I use. I thought about making an electric version but since I use it for gas sometimes, I don't think that'd be such a great idea.

https://www.zoro.com/mityvac-fluid-evacuator-manual-07400/i/G1764515/?utm_source=Bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=PLA

In a busy shop like what I work in, the bigger tube will suck 2 quarts out of an F25 in under 15 seconds. It takes longer to hook up the air hose. The smaller tube, maybe 30 to 45 seconds. Removing the drain bolt and letting it drain takes far longer-speaking from experience-which is why ALL of our techs are using the pumps now instead of removing the drain bolts. The other positive to this is that if for some reason during the process of removing or installing the drain bolt the threads are damaged (or the bolt hex is slightly rounded), it then becomes a huge pain in the butt to deal with. Not to mention that now you've got some explaining to do to your customer. The vacuum pump solves that issue, as well as the liability issue of having to deal with a customer's damaged threads...even though you might not have actually done the damage. Perhaps John Q. Customer had his motor over at quickie lube for a quickie oil change and they reinstalled a 10mm drain bolt with a 1/2" air impact because it's quick. And perhaps they destroyed the threads in the motor. You take the drain bolt out and the soft aluminum threads come out with it. You call the customer, Mr. Customer says it was fine until you worked on it, and now you're between a rock and a hard place. Helicoils don't always work. Sometimes time-serts don't seal up well enough to stop a real slow drip. And then there's occasions where there's not enough material to drill it out to the next size larger thread. All it takes is ONE crankcase or motor leg to justify the cost of the evacuator! Speaking from experience.

 

[Pappy]

Will have to look into that pump. That pump work well in the cold months with cold oil?

 

[Rob Silver]

Here is the manual version. The pneumatic is exactly the same but you just hook up an air hose to it instead of pumping it. A small pancake compressor will run it just fine, and in fact that is what I use. I thought about making an electric version but since I use it for gas sometimes, I don't think that'd be such a great idea.

https://www.zoro.com/mityvac-fluid-evacuator-manual-07400/i/G1764515/?utm_source=Bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=PLA

I guess this would work the same way? The reviews seem very favourable.

https://www.amazon.ca/America-5060-Topsider-Multi-Purpose-Removing/dp/B001445IZ8/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1454418752&sr=8-3&keywords=fluid+extractor

 

[Rob Silver]

Although not in the same power band that I am shopping for, I find this article addressing most of my concerns on Maintenance costs of 4 vs 2 strokes.

https://www.boatingmag.com/gear/boatinglab-tests-outboard-ownership-costs

It appears that over 300 hours (or about 6-7 seasons per my use), the ETECs are only cheaper to maintain by $400-600. Probably even less when it comes to mid-power engines like what I am shopping for.
With the $1900 difference in initial outlay, getting the Yamaha F50 still gives me some money in the pocket.
Couple that with the advice here on DIY oil changes, and given my intended use, I believe the Yamaha F50 will do me well.

Thanks to all who contributed/gave advice!

 

[RiverBottomOutdoors]

One thing I really do not care for on the 4-stroke engines is the messy oil change procedure. Really messy!
Remove the oil filter and the filter drains all over the place in the motor pan forcing a clean-up. Before you can clean it up the oil is drooling all over the mid-section as it is draining out of the pan through the drains.
The crankcase oil drain locations on the side won't leave you with warm fuzzies either and normally drools down the mid-section at some point. Not bashing them by any means as coming up with a great alternative would be difficult and expensive.
On the Etec, I could not stand to run the same gearcase oil for 300 hours. It would be changed at 20 and seasonally after that.

It is messy. Take a piece of card board and bend it to form a spout. Put it under the filter and stuff some shop rags around it to hold it in place. This will redirect the oil that comes out when you take the filter off. Could also buy one of those pumps.

Unfortunately....I apparently do this a little more often than you may realize and on a lot of different engines. On some 4-strokes one of the lower pan halves has to be removed to even get to and remove the oil filter. Word to the wise ....check service points before making a final dedision!
In almost all cases you cannot make a cardboard spout. The filter is usually at or below the top of the motor pan and oil won't run uphill. Pretty much, whatever comes out of the filter is going to make a mess. Good thing the EPA hasn't looked at the process and the aftermath!
Draining the crankcase? At a busy shop a vacuum pump on a 4-stroke outboard is too slow. May be able to get away with it at home though.

...and you haven't figured out a way to do it without making a mess????

Spout tricks works great on my F25 and F60. Also used it on a Merc 60.

 

[turbotodd]

I do not know the bigger motors all that well, and I don't know the Merc/Bombardier/Honda/Tohatsu motors. Yamaha is about all I have dealt with, and a very few Mercs and Mariners. Pappy knows the old Evinrudes a LOT better than I do!

That said, I've serviced almost all yamaha 4 stroke outboards since 1995 when I became a dealer. We gave up Mercury/Mariner (Brunswick) in '94 and took on Yamaha 1 Jan 1995. At first I hated them. From a technician's standpoint. Similar to the Maytag repairman. Only time I see them in the shop is reg maintenance and occasionall a duck hunter will bring one in that's run over flooded trees/stumps/etc. And every so often, a clogged carb on whatever motor. We've serviced mostly small motors. Up to the 150hp, and a few 200+. Did a VF225 last week, oil and filter. Easy.

I can't think of one Yamaha that requires removal of the lower pan. At least none that I've messed with, but I'm not an expert and may not have the experience that others have. I seem to remember someone mentioning an F300 requiring removal of the skirt, but I don't think I've even seen one of those on the water around here. Maybe more popular at coastal areas, which I am not. 99% of what I see is under 100hp.

Did an oil change and replaced all 4 spark plugs, and valve adjustment on an F70 today. Valve adjustment under 30 minutes, plugs in 5 minutes (or less), oil in a few seconds. No mess either, not a drop. Wait I lied, I dripped a tiny bit off of the dip stick when I removed it. Big deal.

I've owned both a 2 stroke 25 Yamaha and a 4 stroke 25 yamaha, and also currently have a 3 cylinder 25 yamaha (that is immaculate, and I have used maybe twice since I got it in 2004). I MUCH prefer the 4 stroke; and I was a die hard 2 stroke lover. I grew up I guess? I use my F25 every weekend, average motor running hours 2 to 3 hours per weekend. Sometimes I'll use it after work during the week, but that's rare. Oil change once a year, and I do an impeller too just because. Never found anything wrong with it but I do it anyway. 2 spark plugs and lower unit fluid. The oil and filter is $16, once a year. The 2 stroke 25, have to mix the oil in with the gas. If I use a quart of oil twice a year (which was about average), you're looking at $12 (5.95/quart for Yamalube 2M premix). So there's a $4 difference in maintenance cost.

You forget to premix the gas on a 2 stroke? Burn up the motor. Most of them don't give you any warning either. Most 4 strokes, if you lose oil pressure (say, forget to put oil back in the crankcase), many limit the engine speed and there is usually a lamp on the front of the motor that lets you know. Just like a car.

Pollution. 2 stroke engines typically don't burn all of the fuel that goes in. Actually no engine does, but 2 strokes burn a lot less than they use; meaning some goes out the exhaust as a natural product of a 2 stroke engine's running. Boat motor exhaust systems go into the water. Just today I had to test run a 25 2 stroke Yammie (twin carb). Within 5 minutes of starting the engine, there was a sheen of oil on the top of the water. Not counting what escaped into the atmosphere as smoke. The motor ran fine, by the way; diagnosing a shifting problem. When you replace an oil filter on a 4 stroke, you wipe it off/out of the pan with rags or towels. At least on the smaller boats and motors (puddle jumpers). Occasionally a customer will want it done on the water. Again, don't start the engine before removal of the filter, and they don't make as much mess. At least not the ones I've done.

There is always going to be a 4 stroke hater every where you go. I run into them at the lake fairly often. Some of them like to scoff. Others comment on how quiet it is, but say they don't like how slow they are. Then every once in a while someone at the ramp watches me launch, then I get into the boat and idle it over to the dock, tie it off and then get the truck and trailer out of the water. Motor idling the entire time. Many many times another boat owner or bystander or someone fishing the ramp will ask questions. How does it run. How much fuel does it use. Do you mix the gas/oil. I heard they're heavy. I've had guys argue with me, and have told some guys to hop into the boat and take off to see how they like it. Some of them still don't like 'em because it don't smoke, rattle, or take at least two attempts to start, and what is funny is that I've even heard guys complain about not having to either work on it or add oil or gas as often, like they feel odd about that or something. I kind of understand, when I bought a truck a while back...I always had junk and grew to accept that I'd have to work on it. When I got the new truck it felt weird having more free time.

The overall confidence level I've gained in equipment is worth every penny and every negative of owning the 4 stroke!

Check out this video:
https://vid262.photobucket.com/albums/ii94/toddh687/254_zpszqgdhhpq.mp4

Yamaha F70LA. At 20 seconds I pull the cowling off. You can hear all 4 injectors ticking. Motor had not been previously run since Dec 18th. It was about 40 degrees this morning when I started the motor. Camera just sitting on the gunwale of the boat.