No spark troubleshooting 1956 5.5 Evinrude

[Newtosa]

Thanks for all the great reference material and advice here. It's a huge help.

I'm restoring a 1956 Evinrude 5.5. I've replaced the coils, points, and condensers (Sierra parts). I've also replaced the spark plug wires and boot plug connectors. I'm getting no spark on the top cylinder and weak (seems like intermittent) spark on the bottom cylinder.

Here are some of the vitals.
. Top coil: 3.9 ohms impedance from primary (at green terminal connector) to spark plug wire (at the plug boot terminal)
. Top coil: 4.2 ohms impedance from the secondary (at black terminal connector) to spark plug wire (at the plug boot terminal)
. Top coil: continuity between primary and secondary terminal connectors
. Bottom coil: 4.7 ohms impedance from primary (at green terminal connector) to spark plug wire (at the plug boot terminal)
. Bottom coil: also 4.7 ohms impedance from the secondary (at black terminal connector) to spark plug wire (at the plug boot terminal)
. Bottom coil: continuity between primary and secondary terminal connectors
. Measurements taken with coils sitting on armature plate but all wires disconnected from ground, points, etc.
. No spark on either cylinder wire when pulling starter rope on old plugs with terminals bent open about 1/4" and touching ground
. No spark on top cylinder wire when pulling starter rope using ignition spark tester (about 3/16" gap)
. Weak spark on bottom cylinder using ignition wire tester at 3/16"... yellow or white but not blue, and only seems to spark about half the time.
. New wire stamped "7mm COPPER CONDUCTOR CABLE", Part BKD MW11 from O'Reilly's. Looks exactly like what's sold on West Marine and eBay as Sierra part number 18-5226.
. New spark plug boot terminals, also BKD brand from O'Reilly's.
. New points gapped at .020" and adjusted to open at the beginning of the range (points lose continuity when flywheel notch reaches the first mark on the plate).

Questions:
. Is it possible for flywheel magnets to go weak?
. How often are new condensers bad? I haven't seen that there's a way to test these with tools the average person has access to... Is that correct?
. Would it matter if I haven't put on the rubber boot protectors (on top of the boot plug terminals)?
. Is it possible the ignition wire isn't the right kind?
. Did I wire it wrong? At this point I've taken everything apart 4 or 5 times and have a printed photo for reference, but there's always the chance.... Here is a photo.

. What else can be tested?
. What should be re-tested?

Thanks in advance,
Dean

 

[Shaugh]

It all looks right. Are you sure that the armatures are not slightly rubbing on the flywheel? Aftermarket coils are notorious for that. Check them for rub marks and read about setting that gap.

 

[nccatfisher]

Like has been said I would check air gap on the coils first, clean the magnets and then proceed to replace all the components with OEM if possible. Aftermarket ignition components have been the source of many grey hairs.

 

[Shaugh]

If you find it rubbing, a few strokes of a file on the plates will get it functional.

 

[Pappy]

On aftermarket coils the center laminates are known to have excessive air gap. This will contribute to weak or no spark. This is very easy to see if you have a set-up ring to set the air gap up with. Not possible in your case.
Aftermarket points sets are notorious for having extremely poor line up between contacts.
There is no substitute for OEM parts for carburetors, water pumps, and ignition components.
To answer your question about magnets getting weak. Yes, possible, but usually found on engines from the earliest through the 1930s vintage.
Crude but take a screwdriver and dangle it between your thumb and forefinger and lower it into the flywheel in question. Move it toward the magnet end and see if it snaps over to it. It should be a fairly healthy pull.
Your issue is a fairly common one and I do believe that if you switch to OEM coils and whatever else is non-OEM your issues will go away.

 

[Newtosa]

Ok, thanks everyone. I ordered the OEM parts; will swap then out when they get here. Wish I could get them as quickly as the after market.... spoiled by Amazon Prime. I guess in the end if they truly make that much difference it doesn't really matter how long they take to ship.

Will let you know how it goes.

 

[Newtosa]

I installed the OEM coils today. The resistance from primary winding to spark plug boot terminal is 7.2 ohms... not quite double the Sierra ones, but certainly higher. I also installed the OEM condensers and points, but didn't get time to gap or adjust timing on the points.

Will keep you posted.

 

[Shaugh]

Those 1950's motors were designed to be kept running by a guy with a straight blade screwdriver, a matchbook cover and an 8th grade education.... It sounds like your installation should be well within acceptable tolerances...

You might also consider a short in your plug wires.. get a helper and have them look while you pull the cord in a darkened room.

 

[Newtosa]

We have spark. Both cylinders. Nearly started, and I got a shimmy and a short run after spraying fuel/oil in the cylinders.

The fuel lines / pump were bothering me (drops from a threaded brass coupling that someone had installed previously, when I squeezed the bulb), so I went on an eBay ordering spree for the fuel lines and decided on a new sediment bowl gasket while I was at it.

Hopefully I'll get back to it this weekend. Will keep you posted.

 

[Newtosa]

Well, I had to change the subject from "no spark" to "no start."

Confirmed spark:
. I installed OEM coils, points, and condensers, and I set the timing on the points to open when the flywheel notch reaches the first mark on the plate.
. Confirmed 3/16" spark on both wires using a low-tech ignition spark tester clipped to ground. New J6C plugs.

Confirmed compression:
. Measured about 70 psi on both the top and bottom cylinder. (I've been told that's about all you get with a 1956 5hp.)

What I've done on the fuel front:
. Cleaned carb, installed new OEM carb kit including new float and needle and seat
. Tested all passages with carb cleaner spray and compressed air
. Cleaned sediment bowl filter and replaced sediment bowl gasket
. New Raider marine fuel line to & from fuel pump and vacuum nipple
. New fuel supply line from tank connector
. New brass 3/16" to 3/8" adapter
. New compression clips
. New B&S style fuel pump
. Blocked one side of the manifold in the reed plate (using a vacuum cap), as shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtG4M7ye1N8&list=WL&index=33&t=222s

I can get the engine to cough and almost start if I use a spray bottle to get a little fuel/oil mix into the engine, spraying through the carb throat.
But I can't get the same behavior with the fuel supply line connected, squeeze bulb tight, etc. I'm using the same tank and line setup successfully with another engine.

One thing I noticed when taking the carb apart today to look for blockages: the needle was stuck. I gently pulled it out and inspected: no dirt, and the rubber tip wasn't deformed. Not sure if this could have been part of the problem, but it definitely wasn't the solution.

One other thing: when I spray fuel/oil into the cylinder directly (through the open spark plug hole), I get the same chug-almost-start behavior.

This leads me to believe the fuel isn't getting from the bowl (where I can see it has gone, since the sediment bowl is full of fuel) through the jet. How do I test this, and what else should I look at? I'm not a professional or anything, but I've rebuilt a dozen or so carburetors, and it's not generally this difficult.

 

[nccatfisher]

If the needle was stuck you were not getting fuel. It was that simple. Many times there will be a buildup of varnish where the needle seats up in the seat. If you don't clean it with cleaner you WILL NOT get it out. I have had some that I didn't have time to let soak in dip that I had to spray a q-tip that I had cut off and put in a drill and burnish the seat area to clean the varnish deposit off before it would seat correctly.

I have to edit this to note that I see you have installed a NEW needle and seat. You will have to address the sticking. Make sure the spring is positioned correctly that goes between the needle and float. something is causing that sticking and will have to be addressed.

 

[Pappy]

There is no spring between the needle and float. There is a wire hanger though. Also, in an OMC kit there is a new needle and seat which eliminated the varnish ...... Something you do not have the pleasure of getting with some aftermarket kits.

You mentioned setting initial timing on the points sets but did not mention points gap. What is it? When setting points set the drag on the feeler gauge extremely light and watch the contacts on the points. If they move and spread at all when setting gap then your gap is not correct. Check it. Timing is affected by gap as is coil saturation time.
Between the carb bowl and the carb body there should be a seal that goes around the high speed pick up tube or emulsion tube. That has to be there to supply fuel to the idle circuit. Check it.
If you want to see if your carb is filling with fuel remove the high speed needle and squeeze the bulb. Fuel should run out the needle bore.
Am assuming you have installed the needle packings..........
On your carb, you have a high speed and a low speed needle.
Set the high speed needle (on the bottom) to about 3/4 out from a lightly closed position.
Set the low speed needle to 1 1/2 turns out from a lightly closed position.
Once all of the above is verified then verify the choke blade closes all the way when actuated.
Engine should start at this point and run well enough to set the needles.

 

[Shaugh]

I agree with Pappy. First pull the high speed needle and see if fuel pumps out the hole when you squeeze the bulb.

Also confirm that you put the little donut on the bottom of the main jet ?

Part number 73 should fit over the bottom end of part 72 and seal it up where it goes into the float bowl:

https://www.marineengine.com/parts/johnson-evinrude-parts.php?year=1957&hp=5.5&model=5514&manufacturer=Evinrude&section=Carbutetor

Additionally you say that the float valve was stuck. Is it properly assembled with the wire clip to insure that when the float drops it opens the valve ? There should be absolutely no tightness or sticking.

 

[Newtosa]

Thanks gentlemen! What a great resource this is... much appreciated.

. Points gaps were set to .020" and tight on the feeler.
. Needle valve packings and choke blade are all good. I had low speed backed off 1-1/2 turns from light seat, but also had high speed backed off 1-1/2. Will set to 3/4 turn.

. I'll remove the high speed needle valve and see if I can confirm flow into the bowl. Since the sediment bowl is full, if I don't see fuel shooting out the high speed valve, what would that mean?
. I'll also check to make sure I installed the pickup tube gasket inside the carb (part 73), and while I have the carb apart I'll confirm the new float needle isn't still sticking.

 

[Shaugh]

That will confirm your float valve is at least opening, and letting fuel fill the bowl. As you've suspected, this is a really simple machine... as long as you have fuel in the bowl and spark the motor should at least run badly.... so you need to find out why...

 

[nccatfisher]

There is no spring between the needle and float. There is a wire hanger though. Also, in an OMC kit there is a new needle and seat which eliminated the varnish ...... Something you do not have the pleasure of getting with some aftermarket kits.

You mentioned setting initial timing on the points sets but did not mention points gap. What is it? When setting points set the drag on the feeler gauge extremely light and watch the contacts on the points. If they move and spread at all when setting gap then your gap is not correct. Check it. Timing is affected by gap as is coil saturation time.
Between the carb bowl and the carb body there should be a seal that goes around the high speed pick up tube or emulsion tube. That has to be there to supply fuel to the idle circuit. Check it.
If you want to see if your carb is filling with fuel remove the high speed needle and squeeze the bulb. Fuel should run out the needle bore.
Am assuming you have installed the needle packings..........
On your carb, you have a high speed and a low speed needle.
Set the high speed needle (on the bottom) to about 3/4 out from a lightly closed position.
Set the low speed needle to 1 1/2 turns out from a lightly closed position.
Once all of the above is verified then verify the choke blade closes all the way when actuated.
Engine should start at this point and run well enough to set the needles.

The wire hanger was what I was calling a spring.

 

[Newtosa]

Removing the high speed needle valve was a good test. There was no fuel getting into the bowl. I removed the float and float valve/needle/seat, cleaned the main passage between the sediment bowl up through the top half and down through the float seat hole, and re-assembled. Next test, fuel gushed out the high speed needle valve.

Current status:
. The engine will start, run between 4-8 seconds, and die. Rough running the whole time. It will rev and run slightly longer if I advance the throttle.
. I can start again in 3-4 pulls, and it will run for 4-6 seconds. If I re-pressurize the system by squeezing the bulb, it starts in 1-2 pulls. Hmm...
. On the running duration: throttle speed doesn't seem to make a difference (other than it running a couple seconds longer at high throttle). Choke kills it instantly.
. Rough running was bothering me, so I re-checked the timing on the points. Also verified both spark plugs are firing. All good there. Using J6C... is this still the right choice?
. Although fuel is getting into the cylinders, it acts like it's not being replenished (sounds like the last rev and dying gasp when you disconnect the fuel line from the tank and let it run through the fuel in the carb).
. Is the fuel line conversion (from 2-line pressurized tank to 1-line) here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtG4M7ye1N8&list=WL&index=33&t=232s - reliable? My fuel pump is a new B&S 808656. Is there anything I can test to confirm the fuel pump is getting the pulse it should?

 

[Pappy]

Fuel pump test is simple.
Disconnect the fuel line from either the output of the pump or the inlet at the carb. Start the engine and observe fuel flow.
You may be very rich. You did not mention dialing in the settings on the needles. Start the engine and start bringing them in (leaner) until the engine runs correctly.
Lets start there anyway..........

 

[Shaugh]

If the float bowl is filled, it should run for longer than that, even if the fuel pump isn't working. So that wouldn't be my first suspect. I agree it's likely very rich. You need to reset your needles and be sure they're at the right starting position, then start leaning the slow speed needle until it will idle.

Given that the float bowl valve was stuck closed... it's also very possible that now it's stuck open ? I would double check that.... hold the carb without the bowl on it and push the float up and down... watch for any possible sticking or failures... be sure the float level is properly adjusted... make sure the float floats....Make sure the float isn't rubbing on the bowl gasket ...etc...

 

[Newtosa]

Shaugh, Pappy, NCcat - thanks a ton for your help with this one. I forgot to get back to the group after getting this one running, and I went back to re-read the thread when struggling with a 40hp earlier this month. It was helpful with that issue I was having to, so I wanted to say thanks again.