With E15, Boaters Will Need Extra Vigilance

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Decatur

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:!: With E15, Boaters, Anglers Will Need Extra Vigilance When Filling Up

ALEXANDRIA, Va. - With the EPA's recent decision to allow the use of gasoline with up to 15% ethanol (E15) in 2001 and newer model cars and trucks, Boat Owners Association of The United States (BoatUS) says that trailerboaters will need to remain extra vigilant when filling up their truck and trailered boat at the local gas station. That's because while E15 could be fine for the tow vehicle, it's not good - nor authorized by the EPA - for use with boats. A strong solvent, ethanol has been known to degrade marine fuel systems, damage engines, add safety concerns, and lead to expensive repair bills.

"When filling up at gas stations, boaters are used to pulling up to the pump and filling up the tow vehicle first, and then putting the same fuel nozzle into the boat," said BoatUS Director of Damage Avoidance Bob Adriance. "If that happens with E15, it could be a big mistake."

The EPA intends to put a warning on the pump - a small label with the exact wording yet to determined. "This is going to be a lot different from the choices offered to boaters today, where it's nearly impossible to misfuel gas or diesel engines, or where there are few consequences when choosing 87 octane over a higher 93 octane gasoline, for example," added Adriance.

All of this means that when E15 starts to appear in gasoline stations, boaters must heed the warning on the pump and shouldn't even think about using it in a boat. Here's why:

* Going Lean isn't good: In addition to hydrogen and carbon found in regular gasoline, ethanol also contains oxygen, which means less air (or conversely, more fuel) is required for combustion. The term "enleanment" is used to describe what can happen when there is too much air and not enough fuel. While most cars and trucks on the road today have closed-loop systems that can adjust to prevent enleanment, most boats have open-loop systems which do not, adding a greater risk of heat-related damage to your boat's engine with E15.

* Compatibility questions: Many components on a boat come in contact with ethanol-laden gasoline, including fuel lines, fuel tanks, fuel pumps, fuel injectors, carburetors, pressure regulators, valves, o-rings, and gaskets. The compatibility of these components with any blend greater than E10 is currently unknown. The failure of only one of these components in your engine could lead to failure or, worse, a fire or explosion.

* A "good" thing isn't what it seems: Phase separation is what happens when gas becomes over-saturated with water, leading the water/ethanol mixture to separate from the gasoline and fall to the bottom of the tank (where the engine's fuel pickup is located). However, since ethanol absorbs water more readily than gasoline and it burns harmlessly through the engine, adding more ethanol to gas will decrease the chance for phase separation. You'd think that would be a good thing, right?

However, as you increase the amount of water in ethanol, this mixture also becomes more acidic, increasing the potential to corrode metal, including aluminum fuel tanks.

Also keep in mind that once gas has phase separated, the only remedy is to completely empty the tank. While BoatUS believes fuel additives in general are a good thing, it has not seen evidence of any additive being able to restore phase-separated gas back to its original state.

* Your warrantee won't help you: Marine engines are only warranted for use with up to 10% (E10) ethanol.

For more information on ethanol, go to BoatUS.com/seaworthy/ethanol.asp. Or, to ask a question or see a discussion on where to find ethanol-free gas at marinas, go the BoatUS ethanol message board at https://my.BoatUS.com/forum

Contact:
D. Scott Croft, 703-461-2864, [email protected]
 
The boating industry needs to stop trying to avoid it, and come up with solutions to deal with it.


There are advantages to it's use. Even E85. I may even look at building a motor that uses e85.


In my experience most problems are from the separation of the fuel, and not from fuel line issues.
 
So what's the deal with this crap? I heard the EPA gave the ok but so far there isn't any date set for them to start delivering E-15. Do we have a choice to buy it or not when it comes out?
There is absolutely no benefit to ethanol. The only people that like it are the politicians and corn growers.
 
Whoopbass said:
So what's the deal with this crap? I heard the EPA gave the ok but so far there isn't any date set for them to start delivering E-15. Do we have a choice to buy it or not when it comes out?
There is absolutely no benefit to ethanol. The only people that like it are the politicians and corn growers.


It burns cleaner and slower....Both are benefits. Some racers tune their cars so that they will ONLY run on E85
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

Fuel economy

In theory, all fuel-driven vehicles have a fuel economy (measured as miles per US gallon, or liters per 100 km) that is directly proportional to the fuel's energy content.[43] In reality, there are many other variables that come into play that affect the performance of a particular fuel in a particular engine. Ethanol contains approx. 34% less energy per unit volume than gasoline, and therefore in theory, burning pure ethanol in a vehicle will result in a 34% reduction in miles per US gallon , given the same fuel economy, compared to burning pure gasoline. Since ethanol has a higher octane rating, the engine can be made more efficient by raising its compression ratio. In fact using a variable turbocharger, the compression ratio can be optimized for the fuel being used, making fuel economy almost constant for any blend. .[21][22] For E10 (10% ethanol and 90% gasoline), the effect is small (~3%) when compared to conventional gasoline,[44] and even smaller (1-2%) when compared to oxygenated and reformulated blends.[45]
 
Despite wikipidia, a car tuned for E85 (not the 10 or 15% stuff) can and do have very close to similar fuel economy numbers but with a much higher power output.

For a boat motor, the power increases would come from increased compression ratio, and advanced timing, both of which would be, and are easy to accomplish.

For cars it is usually due to forced induction (turbo) as higher boost pressures can be run without fear of detonation.



Regardless, the solution to boat engine problems isn't to avoid it. It's to adapt to it. Because it's not going away.
 
My sport trac will run on E85 and I'm too scared to try it. I'm just undereducated on it I guess. Good thread.
 
While I generally embrace new technology..the government never learns anything from their screwed up rules as they apply to just plain people.

Just few years ago, they MANDATED that commercial boats use a diesel fuel that had a colored dye added to it. Suddenly, non-commercial/recreational boaters were unable to buy un-dyed diesel fuel.

All along the coastal waters, fueling stations had to make a choice. They only had one tank designated for diesel. They could either carry commercial, dyed fuel ( which the sell a LOT of, ) or they could fill their one tank with non-dyed fuel...and sell a few gallons every weekend to recreational boaters.

The fuel stations did what EVERY REASONABLE PROFIT MAKING organization would do. They eliminated the fuel for the recreational boaters.

Just the government at work... Adapting to this new rule is going to cost boaters more money...for little gain. Fuel stations are NOT going to be able to provide both ten and 15 percent fuel for our use, nor do I expect them to do so.
Rich
 
The higher the ethanol content the higher it costs at the pump. I was told this directly from a gas station owner.
Currently gas in CA has about 6% ethanol content and when Summer rolls around they change it to 10% and I notice a drop in mpg my truck gets.
Using a food crop for fuel also raises the price of any food that uses corn as an ingredient.
Big AG wants this so they throw money at the Politicians and this is what we get. You would think the subsidies they get would be enough but like anyone sucking off the government tit they always want more.

So what happens if you drive an older vehicle then 2001? Is there going to be separate pumps for these vehicles? If there is what's going to stop newer vehicles from using these pumps or is it voluntary?
Sounds like a bunch of b.s. to me. Seems like its going to be voluntary at first and then over time their going to force the crap onto us. What a corrupt bunch we have in the Whitehouse.
 
Easy now....Some of you are turning this into a political discussion which is against the rules and the best thing about this site....


As for the higher ethanol being more epensive that is not true here anyway. Just drove by a station yesterday. E85 at 85% ethanol was 2.78/gallon, regular gasoline (10% ethanol) was 3.19/gallon.
 
The only thing political is that I despise just about every politician. :LOL2:
I don't even think they sell E85 in CA (i've never seen it). When I talked to the station owner he said he buys the lowest ethanol content he can because its cheaper or at least it was then.
With the price of gas and it continuing to rise along with higher ethanol content their forcing guys with older gas hogs and engines not capable of running that garbage off the road and water.
 
You are correct. This site should not get whacked up by political "discussions". Plenty of sites have gone that way... to their detriment.

Let's just agree...... that we don't agree..... on mandated added Ethanol.

Rich
 
richg99 said:
You are correct. This site should not get whacked up by political "discussions". Plenty of sites have gone that way... to their detriment.

Let's just agree...... that we don't agree..... on mandated added Ethanol.

Rich

Sounds good to me....FWIW though, any benefits I talked about is from using it to produce power.......


Do you agree that it seems like it's not going away? I don't think it is. And that is why instead of avoiding it, boaters, boat builders, outboard builders, and the aftermarket need to come up with ways to deal with it.
 
My old man works at pacific ethanol here in oregon... he loves the stuff (it gets him paid) I personally think it's b.s. Personally i believe it to be a way to attempt to amp up the economy and alleviate costs of fossil fuels from the mid east. I have seen farmers till under crops that are already growing to replant with corn because of the promise of high demands for ethanol production... only to have the ethanol plants nearly go belly up and the farmer stuck selling his crop by the roadside haha... believe it or not that's a trend at least around here. My dad has almost lost his job several times because of plant failure. The whole cost alleviating thing my dad preaches to me is kind of humerus because out here in the boonies the only station that offers e85 charges about 30-40cents more per gallon for the stuff than regular gasoline with 10% ethanol haha. it cracks me up. In my opinion it's another save the whales global warming bunny hugging kind of thing... My silverado is e85 compatible but i refuse to run the stuff, and everything i hear about speaks to it's poor performance and harshness on engines. As for boating i don't know what is going to be done. and I do still believe that you will have the option at most stations that carry it to purchase ethanol free gasoline for a hefty price.
 
"As for boating i don't know what is going to be done. and I do still believe that you will have the option at most stations that carry it to purchase ethanol free gasoline for a hefty price."

Oh, how I wish you were correct. Think of a gas station. It has three or four underground tanks and usually not room, nor money, to add any more. Think of a fuel depot. It has a finite number of tanks. Think of a tanker truck..it can only carry xxx different fuels at one time. All of these economic limitations are why I can no longer buy anything other than E10 anywhere with-in 50 miles of my suburban Houston home.

I would happily pay more for ethanol-free fuel. I understand supply and demand. The economics of having an extra tank/tanker/storage tanks/delivery system just won't allow for the lowest-demanded-fuel ....for boats,..... to be readily (at any cost) available. It is true today here if I wished to buy ethanol free fuel.
Rich
 
Here in the boonies of north eastern oregon the advertising story is premium grade gasoline has no added ethanol. mid grade and regular are well... you get the story lower and lower. That is how the advertising campaign on gasoline goes here. the price difference is... oh probubly 50-70 cents a gallon difference give or take between premium and regular 10% ethanol. However more and more stations are doing away with mid grade... and now alot of places don't even offer a premium gasoline.
 
:lol: Like the rest of you I don't believe what the fed tells me....most of the time. All this yelling and screaming about e-85 and ethanol is just hype. I don't worry to much about my vehicles. Their engines are built to take it. I do however worry about my outboards. Near me are two stations, Marathnon and Exxon that advertise 100% gas. Both of them get alot of boat customers...including me.
 
Dont know much about the different blends of ethanol or the effects it has on your engine. All I know is the only gas station(s) ill stop at is the ones that has the 'no ethanol' sign out front. The truck always seams to get way better mileage than when I use that crap...............
 
I was reading a magazine article today that went over how it takes 1.6 gallons of ethanol to produce the same energy that 1 gallon of gasoline produces, that we are paying the government 30-40 cents a gallon to add ethanol to gasoline, and that most of the ethanol in the us is made using corn, and after all is said and done, the fossil fuel that goes into the process of making the ethanol equals what we are saving by using ethanol it's at 1/1 with corn. However some places use sugar cane (i believe) much easier and more cost effective to grow and harvest and it works out to be right around 6/1 you get 6 units of energy to every 1 unit that goes into producing and harvesting... Thought it was interesting.
 
I posted a topic about this before I read this thread; anyway, here is a link that will tell you where non ethanol gas is in your area:

https://pure-gas.org/

It has helped me - from now on, that is all i am buying for my vehicles, especially my outboard and small motors.
 

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