Bad Start for 2nd Fall Outing

[FuzzyGrub]

All went well until just after launching boat. Turn engine over and no start. Normally, fires immediadtly. Went through a number of checks:

- Primer bulb pumped and hard
- Kill lanyard in place
- Neutral Safety Switch in neutral
- Pulled all 5 engine fuses and examined, all looked good
- Emptied small engine gas filter, and refilled with primer bulb, Looked clean.
- Starter battery voltage good. Was topped off, the night before.

Still no fire. Now, starting to think something electrical failed on this still new motor (40 hours). The Simrad did not find any unusual codes. Depression started setting in that the day of fishing and maybe the rest of the season was over. Decided we would fish a section of the river near the ramp, before pulling the boat back out. After the first pass on the gravel flats, retried the engine. This time it was firing for a split second but not catching. It did this a couple of times. Tried wot starting, like what you would do for a flooded carb based motor, NADA. BTW, that is a bit dangerous on a jet which does not have a true neutral.

With the slight firing, gave us hope that it was gas related, vs electronic/sensor/computer issue. Off to Autozone. Bought a strap wrench, bottle of Startron, and 5 gal gas can. Filled can with new gas, healthy dose of startron and rest added to tank. Removed large canister water seperating filter and dumped. Filled with the fresh gas and reinstalled. Pumped the prmer and she fired right up, like normal! Hurray! Running nice and smooth at idle, and worked just like normal for the rest of the day. Lost a few hours, but easy to swallow when you were already thinking the season was over.

 

[FuzzyGrub]

Now, what is bugging me is how the water got in there. We have been running the 87 ethonal since we got it. Adding Yamaha stabilizer with each fill. Last fill-up, was 2 weeks go, with 90 non-ethonal. 12 gallons into a 17 gal tank. Ran fine all that day, too.

- Sat all summer with only 1/4 filled tank, condensation?
- Sat uncovered for the last 2 weeks and it did get some heavy rain. Gas cap/vent was fully closed, so thinking unlikely.
- Bad gas when we filled with the non-ethonal? Seems unlikely that it would run fine all that day.
- Water accumulation in the filter from 40 hours of running, 1 1/2 years. Hadn't been changed or dumped.

We did a half day of fishing today, and still running fine.

 

[JL8Jeff]

I think Sept is when our winter gas shows up so maybe it had something to do with that. I know we have had some big temp differences the last couple of weeks. 40's at night and into the upper 70's or 80's during the day. I could see condensation building in that situation. My boat's storage area was soaked sitting out in the yard. In the garage it has been fine.

 

[FuzzyGrub]

I think Sept is when our winter gas shows up so maybe it had something to do with that. I know we have had some big temp differences the last couple of weeks. 40's at night and into the upper 70's or 80's during the day. I could see condensation building in that situation. My boat's storage area was soaked sitting out in the yard. In the garage it has been fine.

Yes, the last week or so, we have had heavy dew.

 

[FuzzyGrub]

It stopped raining, so will pull the filter again. This time will dump in glass jar and see if there is water. A new filter is on the way. If it shows enough water, will need to look into pumping tank.

The filter and bowl that is on the engine does have some sort sensor on the bottom. maybe it detects water? I'm fairly certain the 150 Merc has this capability. ie it is one of the beep codes on the chart.

Years ao, when ethonal was still new, had problems in my small outboards. The phase seperation would clog the filters on the motors. Traced the water back to the portable tanks. When it rained, the water was getting in through the vent cap and/or fuel gauge. Now I stand the tanks up, when they are not covered. haven't had a repeat proble on them since.

 

[FuzzyGrub]

Moved here for relevent discussion.

Airshot posted:

Many have bad gas issues today from poor maintenence on the inground tanks. A fellow I know is in the fuel tank business and is an inspector, he claims many brand name fuel stations have poor maintenence records creating issues that people blame on " ethenol" gas. I am lucky to have a small independent farmer run fuel station that is fairly new and properly maintained where I get my fuel. Had water in fuel on a number of ocassions from nearby popular brand stations, but switched to the independent station years ago and not one issue, even cut back on my storage additives and still no issues. Watch carefully where you buy fuel and never buy gas when the tanker is filling or recently filled the inground tanks !!

The dealer I got the non-ethonal from is a local distrubuter. I would have to check, but might be the only local seller of non-ethonal. I haven't had an issue in the past and run it in all my small motors. At the end of spring season, I went to fill it with non-ethonal from them, but their pumps were all shutdown. They were replacing all the tanks at their facility. It is certainly still a possibility, though.

 

[JL8Jeff]

One of our local stations had fuel/water issues a couple of years ago and a bunch of the people on the river had problems in the same time frame. I usually get fuel from the station near my house so I didn't have the problems they had that year. I have no idea if there are any non ethanol stations around, I haven't bothered to look. When my stator went bad, I thought it was fuel issue and replaced my fuel/water filter but found no water in it at all.

 

[airshot]

In my area not many use the non ethanol so it sits...and yes non E gas also accumulates condensation, and some have had issues there. I ca easily remember cleaning varnish from carbs in the days before E10 bought gumout by the case, never have had any issues since using E10 strictly in any of my many toys.

 

[FuzzyGrub]

One of our local stations had fuel/water issues a couple of years ago and a bunch of the people on the river had problems in the same time frame. I usually get fuel from the station near my house so I didn't have the problems they had that year. I have no idea if there are any non ethanol stations around, I haven't bothered to look. When my stator went bad, I thought it was fuel issue and replaced my fuel/water filter but found no water in it at all.

There is some stipulation on where it can be sold. My son was not able to find any in the Lake Hoptacong area, in NJ. I think they told them it was population density. I have never seen it at any pumps in northern NJ.

 

[FuzzyGrub]

In my area not many use the non ethanol so it sits...and yes non E gas also accumulates condensation, and some have had issues there. I ca easily remember cleaning varnish from carbs in the days before E10 bought gumout by the case, never have had any issues since using E10 strictly in any of my many toys.

I ran only non-ethonal in my Mercuiser and so far with the pontoon 150 Merc. Ie dealer said to only run that and given it does not have the big water seperating filter, like the Yamaha, will continue to do so. The Merc has a different fuel system, with this "on demand" valve. ie fuel tank is under vacuum to prevent venting of "harmful" gases. New EPA requirements?

The problem I had with the older outboards was the phase seperation after the water had been in there a while. The white foamy stuff would clog the on board small filter. I did not see any of that in the yamaha fuel bowl.

 

[LDUBS]

I thought the new EPA tanks allow pressure build up to prevent venting. If I recall, they are supposed to vent after reaching 5 psi (why plastic tanks expand like a balloon). On my previous Merc, I installed a fuel demand valve in the fuel line. The idea was to prevent gaso from being forced through the fuel hose because of the pressure build up before the tank would vent. If the tank won't vent when the motor is running it would create a vacuum. I forgot to open the vent on the plastic tank once. It started to "deflate" (don't know how else to describe it).

Either way, I hope you find the issue.

 

[FuzzyGrub]

I dumped the contents of the filter into a jar and let it set. No indication of water on the bottom. I going to keep running the gas that it is in there and monitor. The strap wrench is part of my on-board toolkit now.

Looks to me that there are two tank vents that tie back to the standard fill/vent cap. I don't see any issue there.

 

[FuzzyGrub]

Those on-demand valves are designed to counter the problems created with the EPA compliant tanks. As I understand it when the tank swells (because it won't vent until a certain pressure is reached), it will force gaso through the fuel hose to your outboard. I used one of those on-demand valves on my previous Merc. It was recommended in the owner's manual. I haven't used one on the current Honda outboard -- so far no issues.

Kind of off topic, but I fill up my boat's tank using a 5 gallon plastic gas can. I cannot believe the amount of fuel that is spilled because the EPA compliant contraption just doesn't work like it should. I can't imagine I'm the only one who experienced this. I got tired of it and "converted" that 5 gal can to the old style without the valve in the spout and with a vent. No more spills. I'm all for improvements, but sometimes good intentions just don't work like they should.

No, you are not the only one that hates those EPA fuel cans! I have converted a number of mine. Getting the right spout that doesn't leak, has been hit or miss, for me, though.

 

[LDUBS]

No, you are not the only one that hates those EPA fuel cans! I have converted a number of mine. Getting the right spout that doesn't leak, has been hit or miss, for me, though.

I might of heard a guy took his EPA cap with him to Tractor Supply to make sure the size matched.

I have no business offering advice for issues like yours but just to toss it out there -- if your tank vents were clogged or not operating properly could that cause the problem you are experiencing.

 

[airshot]

I often pick up fuel cans at garage sales, flea markets just for the spouts. Also buy those little plastic vent caps that you can add to fuel tanks. I have only ons small EPA approved gas can for my kicker motor. While very slow dispensing fuel, the shut off valve does prevent spills and controls fuel flow quite easily so filling the little motor while on the water becomes much easier with no mess.

 

[Lost But Happy]

Good website to find non corn-crap gas in your area...

https://www.pure-gas.org/

 

[Tin Man]

For a minute there, after reading title, I thought maybe it was your new toon!
Good thing you had the external fuel filter/water separator.
Boat issues, especially engine and leaks, are the worst IMO!
All things can be repaired.
Glad you repaired quickly and all is well.

I have thought of adding an external water/filter to my new boat with the new Merc. 60. I have not found a suitable location that I like.

Remember...any day is a good day when you're out on the water (aside from falling over and perhaps drowning!)!!

 

[Tin Man]

I just noticed...that G3 is new too!
Did you add the external filter or did it come pre rigged with it?

 

[FuzzyGrub]

I just noticed...that G3 is new too!
Did you add the external filter or did it come pre rigged with it?

It is stock and it is a Yamaha branded filter.

I was surprised that the Merc didn’t come with one. I probably have worse mounting options than yours. The engine pod is only as wide as the motor and gas tank is right there.

It is hard to describe how elated we felt when the engine fired! We were lucky that it happened at the ramp, instead of way downstream.

 

[Crazyboat]

Run the bad gas though a water separator and add it to your car a gal or two at a time. Or use it as lawn mower gas.