Driving a Tesla

Not my intent to turn this into a e-vehicle debate.

I had the opportunity to drive my sister-in-law's new Tesla. Felt like I was in a sci-fi movie. The technology is crazy. First, when I sat down I looked all over for the "start" button. There isn't one. You just shut the door, put it in gear and go. The big screen bird's eye views of cars and people all around you is amazing. Allowing the car to drive on the freeway was scary to me, especially when there was a curve. In fact after a few miles I couldn't take it and bumped it out of that mode. When you let off the "gas"pedal, the car slows quickly and will come to a stop by itself at stop signs. That is another thing that takes some getting used to. Car is pretty peppy too.

I'm not planning on getting one but have to admit the high tech features are impressive.

They're great so long as you can find a charger, I took a ride with a buddy of mine who bought one two years ago, it was January and we were going from NJ to Pittsburgh, mostly on the PA turnpike. The car drove fine but the range at 22 degrees F. was pitiful.
He picked me up, said he needs to go pickup some papers overnight there, (He's a retired attorney), and wanted to know I'd take the ride with him, because at 80, he was afraid he'd doze off on the long stretches of road or get lost.
I said no problem and we left around 11am. The car did fine till about half way, when we found an open charger and stopped for a late lunch. The car got plugged in at 22%, (we started at 91% battery), after about 40 minutes we returned and it was back up to 35%, (the temp outside was about 20 degrees by then. We continued on and were forced to stop again about 10 miles short of where we were headed, about 5 hours after we left, the battery was at 10% and he didn't know how far it would go like that.

We found several chargers but all were either not working or broken. We finally drove to a rest stop, with even less battery remaining and left it charge for an hour, which only got the battery up to about 20%. We got where we were going, late, he picked up the folder he needed, (his own house/office). There was no charger there, just a 120v cord which did basically nothing in the time we were there. We got back on the highway to head home and the car soon again needed a charge, so we stopped at a rest stop on the highway, found a charger and let it charge, killing as much time as we could stand. Nearly two hours later the car had 34% or so. We headed out, and got almost back to Philly but didn't want to risk running it dead in the city at 3am and we were hungry so we found a truck stop that had chargers.

We had to wait for one to free up, but let it charge for another two hours while we dragged our feet having something to eat in a warm truck stop diner. We left with 38% charge, and decided to skip Philly and go around taking the back roads home knowing we'd pass several gas stations that way on the Jersey side of the river where we could top off the charge if needed. It made it back to my house around 9am, but had only 2% battery showing. I let him take my truck home and I plugged in his Tesla to 115v at my house and went to bed. It had taken nearly 24 hrs to do what should have been a 11 hour drive. After 9 hours plugged into 115v cord at about 24 degrees the next day, it had only come back up to 18%. He came and got it and called me the next day saying that he let it charge for 12 hours on his 220v charging station he had put in and it was back up to 99% or so.

Driving wise the car was great, it was fairly comfortable, although a bit harsh riding but plenty fast. But the fact that it couldn't make what should have been a 10 hour or so drive out and back was unacceptable. When he tallied up all the charges from the various stops to charge the car he came up with $211, not counting the fact that my electric bill that month was oddly $90 higher than its ever been before having let that thing charge all night.
At $1,75/kwh here owning one of them is not an option at any cost.

I will say it does better in the summer but he's pretty much relegated it to being a summer only car and only uses it for around town where he lives. Luckily he doesn't drive much at his age these days but even if the car was free I would never want to have to deal with a long overnight drive like that again not knowing when or if the car may just shut off because you can't find a proper charger for it. Or would I want to pay over $200 for the experience.

I still think we're a long way off from battery technology that will make E cars the norm, or even a viable option for most people. They simply just don't charge fast enough or cheap enough. I also have my doubts as to whether or not the local power company could supply enough power if every home had one, maybe two of them that sat on charge each night. I know my house with its 60a service would never do it without a major upgrade, which is even more money put out for something that could be avoided but keeping my old car.

Once they get the battery issues solved they will be great for local driving and for delivery services. Cross country driving and waiting for a charge is not appealing. Like any vehicle, they have a time and a place. The self driving feature is going to become a nightmare before long. The lawyers are already putting together cases before an accident happens. I hear they can be very fast !!

Slot Cars on Steroids. Very fast and way to quiet. Battery longevity and Battery charging infrastructure need a long way to go before I am a buyer.

There is a solid state battery that is being designed that is supposed to be very fast charging. Might be other issues to deal with though.

I was always hoping that hydrogen and hydrogen fuel cells would become economical.

While I do like the tech advances in the area, the support system leaves much to be desired, and that's why I believe the EV will never become the savior of the planet that some would have us believe.
A) There's too much environmental impact in just the mining of the metal(s) for the batteries, never mind the disposal issues.
B) It's not hardly the "zero emissions" vehicle that it's supposed to be. There's still emissions required in the manufacture of the components, lubrication for all the mfgr-ing equipment, and for the vehicle itself. So it still requires oil in some form.
C) Sure, there's no internal combustion engine exhaust, but that just means one is moving the IC pollution from many tailpipes to one big one at the power plant.

In my opinion, it makes little economic sense to buy one, as the gains are hardly worth the expense, considering the cons of the entire EV issue(s). There may be something in the future, but I suspect we're limited out as far as battery technology. After all, we're restricted by the natural materials we have available to us on this planet.

I'm liking Fuzzygrub's thoughts, but there's a price to be paid on the other end, too. If hydrogen were to become a viable and successful fuel alternative, we'd have to start breaking down the planet's water in order to supply enough fuel. That would surely kill the planet, as the oceans would dry up because we wouldn't know when to stop. At the very least, we'd be quite limited in fuel production in order to maintain an acceptable water table to sustain life.

Just my 5-pence.....Roger

GTS225 said:

I'm liking Fuzzygrub's thoughts, but there's a price to be paid on the other end, too. If hydrogen were to become a viable and successful fuel alternative, we'd have to start breaking down the planet's water in order to supply enough fuel. That would surely kill the planet, as the oceans would dry up because we wouldn't know when to stop. At the very least, we'd be quite limited in fuel production in order to maintain an acceptable water table to sustain life.

Just my 5-pence.....Roger

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Most, if not all is returned to water vapor. While there would be no impact to our oceans, the water vapor emmitted would change climate to some extent. Maybe for the better?

I still remember my 9th grade science experiment with electrolysis. When I lit off the hydrogen, made the biggest bang in the classroom. No smoke, just water droplets on the test tube.

Our military is never going to run on batteries. Diesel will be around for a long time.

As others have mentioned, EVs to me, are a commuter car. Good for urban areas and reducing air polution. Need large charging networks at work locations, to take advantage of the solar grid during mid-day.

PS: Sorry LDUBS, for continued side-tracking your thread. FWIW: I haven't even sat in a Tesla yet.

mirrocraft16 said:

They're great so long as you can find a charger, I took a ride with a buddy of mine who bought one two years ago, it was January and we were going from NJ to Pittsburgh, mostly on the PA turnpike. The car drove fine but the range at 22 degrees F. was pitiful.
He picked me up, said he needs to go pickup some papers overnight there, (He's a retired attorney), and wanted to know I'd take the ride with him, because at 80, he was afraid he'd doze off on the long stretches of road or get lost.
I said no problem and we left around 11am. The car did fine till about half way, when we found an open charger and stopped for a late lunch. The car got plugged in at 22%, (we started at 91% battery), after about 40 minutes we returned and it was back up to 35%, (the temp outside was about 20 degrees by then. We continued on and were forced to stop again about 10 miles short of where we were headed, about 5 hours after we left, the battery was at 10% and he didn't know how far it would go like that.

We found several chargers but all were either not working or broken. We finally drove to a rest stop, with even less battery remaining and left it charge for an hour, which only got the battery up to about 20%. We got where we were going, late, he picked up the folder he needed, (his own house/office). There was no charger there, just a 120v cord which did basically nothing in the time we were there. We got back on the highway to head home and the car soon again needed a charge, so we stopped at a rest stop on the highway, found a charger and let it charge, killing as much time as we could stand. Nearly two hours later the car had 34% or so. We headed out, and got almost back to Philly but didn't want to risk running it dead in the city at 3am and we were hungry so we found a truck stop that had chargers.

We had to wait for one to free up, but let it charge for another two hours while we dragged our feet having something to eat in a warm truck stop diner. We left with 38% charge, and decided to skip Philly and go around taking the back roads home knowing we'd pass several gas stations that way on the Jersey side of the river where we could top off the charge if needed. It made it back to my house around 9am, but had only 2% battery showing. I let him take my truck home and I plugged in his Tesla to 115v at my house and went to bed. It had taken nearly 24 hrs to do what should have been a 11 hour drive. After 9 hours plugged into 115v cord at about 24 degrees the next day, it had only come back up to 18%. He came and got it and called me the next day saying that he let it charge for 12 hours on his 220v charging station he had put in and it was back up to 99% or so.

Driving wise the car was great, it was fairly comfortable, although a bit harsh riding but plenty fast. But the fact that it couldn't make what should have been a 10 hour or so drive out and back was unacceptable. When he tallied up all the charges from the various stops to charge the car he came up with $211, not counting the fact that my electric bill that month was oddly $90 higher than its ever been before having let that thing charge all night.
At $1,75/kwh here owning one of them is not an option at any cost.

I will say it does better in the summer but he's pretty much relegated it to being a summer only car and only uses it for around town where he lives. Luckily he doesn't drive much at his age these days but even if the car was free I would never want to have to deal with a long overnight drive like that again not knowing when or if the car may just shut off because you can't find a proper charger for it. Or would I want to pay over $200 for the experience.

I still think we're a long way off from battery technology that will make E cars the norm, or even a viable option for most people. They simply just don't charge fast enough or cheap enough. I also have my doubts as to whether or not the local power company could supply enough power if every home had one, maybe two of them that sat on charge each night. I know my house with its 60a service would never do it without a major upgrade, which is even more money put out for something that could be avoided but keeping my old car.

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My brother-in-law drives his to Los Angeles a lot. It is about a 6 hour drive. He recharges about half way down. I talk to folks using them and coordinating a charge is always part of just about any trip over a few hours.

airshot said:

Once they get the battery issues solved they will be great for local driving and for delivery services. Cross country driving and waiting for a charge is not appealing. Like any vehicle, they have a time and a place. The self driving feature is going to become a nightmare before long. The lawyers are already putting together cases before an accident happens. I hear they can be very fast !!

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One thing I didn't realize is for the self driving feature your hands have to be on the wheel. I suspect that wasn't on the earlier models but honestly don't know. This is really some crazy high tech stuff. It monitors your grip on the wheel. Inside cameras track that you are paying attention (not a a cell phone, etc). If it thinks you are not, it gives warnings and takes the car out of self driving mode.

My "fossil fuel" vehicle has a feature that will tell me if it thinks I need a cup of coffee. I never have that on. Haha.

LDUBS said:

One thing I didn't realize is for the self driving feature your hands have to be on the wheel. I suspect that wasn't on the earlier models but honestly don't know. This is really some crazy high tech stuff. It monitors your grip on the wheel. Inside cameras track that you are paying attention (not a a cell phone, etc). If it thinks you are not, it gives warnings and takes the car out of self driving mode.

My "fossil fuel" vehicle has a feature that will tell me if it thinks I need a cup of coffee. I never have that on. Haha.

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Hands on the wheel is the latest add-on for self driving cars due to all the pics and videos of people sleeping while behind the wheel. Sorry but I don't trust some computer against all the crazy drivers I see on the road today. I tried the anti-skid control on both of our vehicles. They don't work very well, can't imagine driving on the highway in busy traffic.

Other than my 21 year old truck and 22 year old car, everything else I've got still has points, or at least came new with them.
I owned a 2005 Prius, which became mine by inheritance years ago. I sort of liked the car in a way because around town it burned almost no fuel. I could drive that thing for 6 months on a tank of gas. The problem is the gas would go bad in the tank and I didn't do enough highway driving in it to keep the main battery charged so after a year the main battery was nearly useless. After several warranty repairs on the main battery I saw it was not going to be a keeper and I sold it with only 2,500 miles on it. There was no way to charge the main battery, it only charged when the engine was running or while slowing down.

Fast forward to 2022, there were huge incentives on EV's, so I did take a serious look at a Tesla. A cousin of mine bought one and in the end it was less than buying a new Toyota like he had always driven. A few months into owning it he was having issues keeping it charged. He's retired, so it sits a lot but he only uses the car for longer trips, locally he uses public transit.
He rents so he can't install a charger either. He has to rely on super chargers around the area, most of which are always occupied and several are in rough areas where you would never leave your car and go elsewhere.

He was here last Thanksgiving with it and we took a ride the next day in it, I drove most of the way, The car drove great and was FAST. but the thing lost charge as we drove pretty fast. With two grown men in the car, on a two hour ride, it went from 88% to 22% on a 31 degree day. We had to hunt for charging stations to get home stopping twice for over an hour each time to try to get the battery back up enough to get back home.

It was enough to convince me that EV's are not an option, and likely won't be for a long time.
Until they can come up with a battery that can charge as fast as fuel can be pumped they won't be a viable replacement for gas or diesel.

They also need to be cheaper, paying full price for most of them is close to 100K or more. Most incentives are now over so the deals are gone, if you consider hour plus long stops every 40 minutes is the way you want to travel, then they're great but I just don't see them as a viable option. The places where they would be best suited are where they have the biggest issues.

The majority of folks living in the city live in row homes, and park on the street. You often don't get the same parking spot all the time and you can't install a super charger or run a cord out across the sidewalk to plug in your car, especially if its parked two doors down because that was the only open parking place when you got home.
You also can't expect employers to install chargers for their employees either, its akin to expecting them to buy your gas or change your oil in your IC car.

I drive very little these days in retirement, a matter of both my design and the fact that many of the places I used to go are now gone. Since I'm not driving to work, my car only gets use to go shopping about once a month or so. I filled my tank a year ago in April in my Crown Vic, and I've got 3/4 tank left. I'll probably add gas to help keep it from going bad. I've only put a few hundred miles on that car in over a year. My truck only tows the boat and my equipment trailer and its only been about 80 miles in four years since the nearest ramp has been closed.
I've been keeping my boat at a buddies place on the water so I've been using his tractor to launch for the last year or so, and I've been taking the bike to get there most of the time, and my CB400 can got a LONG time on a gallon of gas.
I thought about buying an electric bike for that same purpose but the cost of insurance and tags here was as much as owning another car so that idea went out the window fast. As it stands now, the bike won't be getting renewed next month because the insurance on that jumped from $122/yr to now they want $1,800/yr. They cite 'increased expenses' as the reason for the rate increase. Al it'll do is lead to more people driving without insurance and just taking the chance.

We're on our 2nd Tesla. The one we have now is the wife's car. We have a boat load of solar on the roof so we pretty much use the Tesla to go most everywhere and never have a fuel or electric bill. I'm not sure if all the expenses of solar and the tesla have justified what I would have paid in fuel and the electric bill (there was a lot of tax rebates for both the solar and tesla)...but with my friends paying $700 month for electicity and filling up my truck costs me $120 in diesel (I'm in Comifornia) I think it's panned out since we drive that Tesla for just about everything unless it's a long trip.

Boosh said:

We're on our 2nd Tesla. The one we have now is the wife's car. We have a boat load of solar on the roof so we pretty much use the Tesla to go most everywhere and never have a fuel or electric bill. I'm not sure if all the expenses of solar and the tesla have justified what I would have paid in fuel and the electric bill (there was a lot of tax rebates for both the solar and tesla)...but with my friends paying $700 month for electicity and filling up my truck costs me $120 in diesel (I'm in Comifornia) I think it's panned out since we drive that Tesla for just about everything unless it's a long trip.

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Our utility bills are climbing but I have to say no where near what you reported earlier. Still, those tax incentives for solar are enticing. One of my concerns is we have a metal roof (wildfire exposure). I suppose there are enough of these roofs around the installers should know what they are doing.

if you don't mind my asking, does your solar set up include battery storage and if yes, do you think it was worth it?

I'd be reluctanct as you are, with a metal roof...but I guess a metal roof has screw/nail holes all over too? I think if I were to do it all over again, I'd build a big shade cover or patio that had all the solar on it. No batteries on my system. I ended up going with a whole house generator for about $8K vs spending more than twice that for batteries. I'm on propane out here in the mountains of San Diego, so the genny runs off propane. I did switch out from a 250 gal tank to a 500 gallon tank (no charge from propane company). Fires have ripped through here a few times over the years so they kill the power when the winds pick up. The generator has come in handy several times and I can run everything in the house including the AC's. I used to generate enough that I would get around $800 back per year from SDG&E. But they keep changing their "fee" setup and now charge a LOT more for "delivery" vs killowatte. Probably because so many people have solar. I'm close to my true up time and I'm showing I'm going to pay around $300 now. I think the only way around that is to cut off completely from the power company and go batteries with a generator backup when it's overcast or raining for long periods.

Boosh said:

I'd be reluctanct as you are, with a metal roof...but I guess a metal roof has screw/nail holes all over too? I think if I were to do it all over again, I'd build a big shade cover or patio that had all the solar on it. No batteries on my system. I ended up going with a whole house generator for about $8K vs spending more than twice that for batteries. I'm on propane out here in the mountains of San Diego, so the genny runs off propane. I did switch out from a 250 gal tank to a 500 gallon tank (no charge from propane company). Fires have ripped through here a few times over the years so they kill the power when the winds pick up. The generator has come in handy several times and I can run everything in the house including the AC's. I used to generate enough that I would get around $800 back per year from SDG&E. But they keep changing their "fee" setup and now charge a LOT more for "delivery" vs killowatte. Probably because so many people have solar. I'm close to my true up time and I'm showing I'm going to pay around $300 now. I think the only way around that is to cut off completely from the power company and go batteries with a generator backup when it's overcast or raining for long periods.

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Pardon my ignorance, but don't the solar panels need batteries to store energy then send it out to the house?

When you DON'T have batteries, the power from solar is sent to SDG&E (or your local power company), don't know exactly how that works but the solar generation is sent into their grid. They pay pennies for that power, then turn around and charge you much more when you use it. Batteries hold all that power you generat and you get to use it when you need it.

I saw a recent news blurb that CA has excess solar on many days, and requiring batteries for new installations to get the incentives.

I looked into those a few times. Love the tech. We run on solar so charging at the house wouldn't cost us anything. What's kept me from it boils down to 3 things. 1. We live in the country and take long road trips, I don't like having to stop to recharge for an hour or more when I'm trying to get somewhere. 2. The cost to replace the battery after a few years is about the same as replacing the car. and 3. I like to take my camper out and I don't see an EV being able to pull that anytime soon.
I did use a hybrid for about 6 months while I was on a trip. I was impressed with that car. Used very little gas and I didn't have to fill up very often. I'm surprised that we moved so quickly from hybrids to full EV.

I thought this was an interesting article by Kelly Blue Book.

The wave of electric vehicles (EVs) coming into the market brings a new consideration to the consumer buying experience. Price is always a significant factor in choosing a new vehicle, as is the total cost of ownership. Combining purchase price with a cost of ownership estimate has always been a helpful way to evaluate whether a certain vehicle is right for an individual, especially when thinking about cost in terms of monthly payments or annual expenditures.
The same is true of both ICE and electric vehicles. But new data about EVs specifically illustrates the importance of weighing cost of ownership when assessing the total “cost” of owning an EV compared to an ICE vehicle.
Kelley Blue Book calculates the five-year cost to own a vehicle, which includes all vehicle-related costs a consumer will likely have within the first five years of ownership. The data pulled from the first week of February in 2023 shows that EVs cost consumers an average of $65,202 during this time period, while ICE vehicles cost $56,962.
Of course, no consumer experience is the same. People use their vehicles for different purposes, require different upkeep, and have different financial resources. We have broken down the costs that contribute to these averaged totals, so that consumers can understand the costs associated with their individual needs.
Financing is a component of many consumers’ purchase process. The average cost of an EV financing is $4,583, while an ICE vehicle is $3,247. After purchase, insurance is often the largest regular bill accompanying a vehicle. The average cost of collision and liability insurance for EVs is $6,824; ICE vehicles average to $5,707. Insurance costs typically correlate to the price of the vehicle, as well as cost for repairs, both of which are currently higher for the newer technology in EVs.
An obvious area of savings for EVs is in fuel. For ICE vehicles that drive 15,000 miles per year, the average cost of fuel over the five-year ownership (using the nationwide average of fuel prices in that time) is $9,490. EV owners driving the same distance spend $4,295 on charging. Another argument often made in favor of EV affordability is maintenance, the cost to keep a car running well. EVs and ICE vehicles share many maintenance costs, such as replacing wipers, wiper fluid, rotating the tires, etc. The difference lies, of course, in the engine. Without costs like regular oil changes, EV owners spend about $300 less on maintenance than their ICE peers in five years ($4,246 to $4,583).
Outside of maintenance, all vehicles require repairs. Based on a no-deductible extended warranty, EVs averaged $1,712 in repair costs over five years, while ICE vehicles averaged $1,695. Most notably, while the frequency of repairs does tend to decrease with EVs at this initial stage of ownership, the cost of repairs increases, creating a greater overall cost to owners – which runs counter to the popular narrative that EVs are less expensive to maintain. For example, EV tires have to withstand heavier loads due to batteries, which may impact how often they need to be replaced. Batteries also eventually require replacement, though the timing continues to change as the technology develops.
The final cost of the vehicle is its depreciation at resell, the difference between what the consumer paid for it and its worth after five years of ownership. EVs lose an average of $43,515 in value; ICE vehicles depreciate by $27,883.

The tech in these cars and especially the batteries is so new, that the investment in one is impractical. It's like the first people who bought livescope. With the tech so quickly advancing into better versions, everyone sells their old one and buys the newer versions, only for them also to become nearing absolescence immediately thereafter. Except with livescope, it's $2,000. With E-Vehicles it's $100,000.