Need Insight On Electrical Issue

[monzster]

InSaneFisheerMan sorry I hadnt gotten back. Wife has had me doing spring honey do list on the weekend then Mothers Day and work has picked up which is good. I havent even had time to look at the boat but hoping to this weekend. I have 2 50 amp breakers one for each motor and they are wired at the motor about 6-12 inches from the motor give or take. That was not changed when I wired in the accessories and such. They are wired into the hot wire. I only had this problem this one time and both motors were running on the highest setting. After the reset I only ran one motor and didnt run it on high in fear of getting stranded. I had not had this problem previously but I didnt have the other stuff wired into the boat other than my fish finder. So different wiring set up totally. So it very well may be something with the wiring. I think it is going to be a process of elimination. Being as I have had a couple of weeks to think about it I have come up with a plan of attack so I shouldnt be sitting around scratching my head......hopefully.

 

[monzster]

So the saga continues. This evening I put the motors in a couple of trash cans and filled them with water. I knew it wouldnt have the push of the boat but it would have some resistance. The batteries have been disconnected for 2 weeks and not on a maintainer. I connected up everything and the percentage gauge showed 93%. Running each motor separately on low speed I had a drop to 83% on one motor and the other 82% and both were held for a minute each and after each motor was run after about 7 minutes the percentage came back up to 93% at rest. On high each motor ran individually had a drop to 58% and the other 62% each held for a minute and came back to 93% at rest after 6 minutes. Then both motors were run together on low and they dropped to 72% and high to 48%. Each were held for a minute and at rest returned to 92% after 7 minutes. I took out the kill switch ran everything straight from the battery and pretty much had the same results. So I think the kill switch is ok. Next I am going remove the main wire to the rocker panel and just wire up my Garmin. This will be how the boat was wired before I was semi stranded and will run the test again. Hopefully this will happen tomorrow.

 

[InSaneFisherMan]

On previous post, the circuit breaker should be close to the + side of battery. I think the standard is within 10”.

There are some over current failures (shorted wire) that could happen where the wire between the circuit breaker and the battery are not protected.

The closer the breaker is to the battery, the better the circuit protection.

On your last test, when the batteries come back to 92 & 93%, I would have very high confidence in your batteries.

The drop in % of capacity when motors are running is normal for lead acid batteries and the type battery gauge.

I normally don’t pay attention to my volt meter when using my trolling motor, but it does show quite a drop when in high speeds and a lower drop when in low speeds.

 

[monzster]

So I got off work early today and disconnected the rocker switch panel and just ran the Garmin and percentage gauge just like I had before I had an issue. The percentage gauge was at 95% at rest. Rather than go thru the whole sequence like I did yesterday and to save time I just ran both motors at the same time on low and the gauge went to 71% and on high it went to 57% and each were held at a minute. After cutting off it took 7 minutes or the batteries to come back to 93%. So it is pretty much the same as yesterday. So I checked the resistance on the wiring and the most I got was .002 on a couple of the accessories but I also was using a 30 foot wire between the meter because the wires on my meter were to short to reach from one end of the boat to the other end. Dont know if that makes any difference. So there is still the mystery of why my gauge never dropped below 90% for almost 2 years of having this boat.

Now why my breakers blew. In checking my wiring I ran across this. See the pictures. Of course you can see the frayed wiring at each breaker and these are positive wires and you will also notice that I have a ground on an "accessory line" that is not being used and that ground is not covered and exposed. If by chance that ground were to come in contact with the boat and one of those frayed positive wires contacted the boat would that blow the breakers?

 

[InSaneFisherMan]

From the pictures, none of the wire issues between the battery and circuit breaker would cause the circuit breaker to pop. The weakest link would fail, and you would probably see melted wire insulation or arc marks on the hull.

All the wire issues need to be fixed. Also, some of the crimp ring connectors have weak crimp barrels and wires can come loose, check all your crimp connectors.

On Lead Acid batteries the internal resistance will increase with the age of the battery. The internal resistance is one of the causes for the voltage drop you see when a load is applied.

 

[monzster]

InSaneFisherMan I really hate crimp connectors. I think I am going to go to my hardware store today and see if they have small terminals like you see on battery cable ends so I can solder them. There again I guess I could cut the plastic barrel off the crimp ones and solder them with shrink wrap. Either way that is the project for this weekend. Im going to go thru all the wiring and my plans are to move the breakers closer to the batteries and last night I made a holder for one of my motors and I am going to mount one of them on the front of the boat and run each motor to its own battery and I am going to make a "power box" to run the accessories and will hit the water hopefully in the next week or two and see how it goes.

 

[InSaneFisherMan]

I think your on the right track. Fixing all the issues you found will save a lot of frustration on the water.

I have some cheap crimp terminals and the crimps almost always fail. I always solder these terminals, especially on my boat. My good terminals, well I am always out of the size I need.

 

[monzster]

So I got one of my motors moved to the front and I have fixed all the wiring and then rechecked all the resistance. So I have these circuit breakers and I have them placed where I want to mount them but in the process I broke the tabs that mount them and one of them had the tabs broke already. The ones that I am using are the little gray ones with a push button I got them when I first got the motors because they are required in my state. They were like $10 from Walmart but I see some online that look alot more sturdy but are like $30 dollar with a switch. See the pictures. So I am wondering being as I have to replace them because of the mounting mishap is it worth the $$$ to get the more expensive one or is a circuit breaker a circuit breaker? I also found a bullet type one thats kind of cool looking. I am going to work on a portable battery box to run all the acessories this week. I got the box and battery all ready just need to get all the other stuff.

 

[InSaneFisherMan]

These all appear to be thermal circuit breakers. So in general they are pretty similar.

Environmental issues will probably be the biggest concern.

I have the one in the first picture installed on my trolling motor now and just my opinion but it seems to be better suited for marine environments. The smaller gray one, I had on my older trolling motor with no issues, just coated it with RTV. Never used the bullet type.

 

[monzster]

InsaneFisherMan after I posted my last reply I noticed that some of the ones in the first picture say waterproof. I think that is the route I will go. It just looks more sturdy and they will be at the front of the boat. Sometimes water does splash over the bow in rough waves and Im not sure how its going to do with the motor up front now. Thanks for the input. I certainly appreciate everyone's input and recommendations for this issue and hopefully over the Memorial Day weekend I will get it out to see how it does and will give yall an update. Again thanks.

 

[DaleH]

Environmental issues will probably be the biggest concern.

I have the one in the first picture installed on my trolling motor now and just my opinion but it seems to be better suited for marine environments. The smaller gray one, I had on my older trolling motor with no issues, just coated it with RTV. Never used the bullet type.

FYI:

I mount all such electrical devices in plastic 'Tupperware'-type boxes mounted to a vertical bulkhead, using rubber grommets for any penetrations for the wires through the sides. Then I grease the lid seal well with dielectric grease and slap it on.

The one good thing about the CBs that InSaneFisherMan posted =D> , is that you can manually shut down that circuit if ever needed in an emergency, service or for troubleshooting. But I too find them to be excellent for my saltwater boat/environment use!

 

[monzster]

DaleH I really like that idea. Thanks for the suggestion

 

[InSaneFisherMan]

Picked up a free powerpack at a garage sale last weekend. Had to put a 12vdc 18ah battery in it. Works great.

This powerpack has a % of charge display so I went to the manual to see how it actually works.

I found this note in the manual and thought it probably applies to this thread.

 

[monzster]

InSaneFisherMan thats intresting. I will have to keep that in mind next time out. I took the day off Friday for an extended holiday and was hoping to get out but they are calling for Thunderstorms now so I may not get a chance this weekend but will keep yall informed as to what happens. I did get the bullet style relays and am going to put them in Tupperware as DaleH suggested. I dont know if I will get that done before I go out this weekend but still have the gray one installed at the moment. Have alot of family stuff going on during the week. The only reason I went with them is they will fit better where I am mounting them. So we will see.

 

[Zum]

I domt think its your batteries, pretty sure even if they were bad(weak) they wouldnt make your breakers trip...run time=yes breakers tripping=no.?
I've had 1 of those grey breakers go bad on me in the past, had to bypass it to get home. For both of yours to trip at the same time, doubt thats the issue but they are cheap to replace.I bought another cheap grey breaker, works fine(5 years), i also bought one of those "bullet" straight ones but never installed it.
Almost seems like something shorted. I mean if you were in weeds or had line around both TM shafts maybe your amps would get the 50 but a 30lbs TM normally doesnt get past , what 35amps? Bad bearings in a TM, it would be nice if you had DC amp meter, put it up near your circuit breaker when your running, really shouldnt be over 32amps at WOT.
Bad connection, corrision, water wicking up any of those wires with time might change the impedance.
With your pictures, the main battery one....is it read right to left so main power has 2 pos. and 2 neg. coming into the plug with only 1 of each coming off the backside, then looks like you might have spliced into that for your 2 TM's?

 

[monzster]

Sorry it has taken so long to get back. Zum the wire from the main battery is right with positive and negative. It then goes left where it was spliced for each trolling motor having it's own positive and negative and the batteries were run in parallel.
I finally got to take the boat out today but it was in a tidal river and not the resivour but have been on this river before. So to recap. I repaired the wiring. I moved one trolling motor to the front of the boat. Each trolling motor is now wired with it's own battery and I installed the bullet type breakers at the batteries. The only thing now run thru the kill switch is the rocker switch panel which runs the accessories. I had only one percentage gauge and I left it run in the same place which is now only attached to the rear motor and this battery runs the rocker panel as well. Going against the tide and current my guage would drop to 35 % but the motor ran very stronger than previously on this river. When we would anchor to fish the gauge would always come back to 93%. Also when reading the voltage itself it would never drop below 11.4 and would always come back to 12.2 at rest. Though I dont have a gauge on the front motor I was suprised as how much faster the boat is with the motor in the front running at the same time with the rear. I never had any issues and on the way back down river we were against the tide again and the motors were just as strong with the same readings on the gauge. So I think I'm going to just use the gauge on volts instead of % from now on. I may in the future get an amp meter just to see what the motors are drawing as Zum suggested. I appreciated all the help with issue and the great tips you've offered. Thanks again. Hopefully I'll get back out to the resivour in the next couple of weeks.