Some questions on finishing my 14' mod v mod

[Macrosill]

I started this almost 3 years ago. I did get some work dine but never finished. The boat sits as it did in this thread : https://forum.tinboats.net/viewtopic.php?t=33154

After 2 back surgeries and other things in life that get in the way of hobbies I am ready to continue on.

I have almost convinced myself to take all the wood framing out and redo it with aluminum angle. Either 1x1/8 or 1 1/2x1/8. Any suggestions to just keep the wood or definitely redo it in aluminum. I only want to do this once. I have a Fastenal close buy but have found them to be very expensive. I was thinking of either going with HD angle or order online.

My biggest hold up in the past was I did not want to breach the hull with new solid rivets but I think I am going to do that, all above the water line, to really make the frame solid and add back the support from taking the middle bench out.

I am planning on using pop rivets, aluminum with ss mandrels to secure to the inner structure. Then use solid aluminum rivets to attach to the hull above the water line.

Then I plan on decking with plywood sealed with either spar varnish or epoxy paint. Then carpet.

I also plan on adding pink or blue foam under the deck to replace the foam lost in the removal of the middle seat and then add more due to the added weight.

At this point I am thinking on adding some long storage along the sides of the boat. This will allow me to deck the main area a bit lower in the boat.

This is the "Grand Plan" I have right now. But plans change and change often.

So, now that you know the plan I have a few questions.
First, any thoughts or suggestions on the "plan" of redoing the framing in aluminum?
Second, solid rivets above the water line, should I add some 3M 5200 or is it not needed?
Third, When riveting to the inner structure with pop rivets should I add some 3M 5200 in addition to the rivets?

 

[richg99]

I've never done what you are doing, so I can't help much.
I do believe that one of the old timers here (maybe Johnny) suggested using Super Glue and "wicking" it into the rivet holes, rather than 3M5200.

richg99

 

[Johnny]

Macro - fasteners above the waterline do not leak.
if by chance they are leaking, you have more severe issues than leaking rivets !


question: why do you want to use aluminum pop rivets with the SS mandrel ??
I am a big fan of aluminum angle and square tubing for any kind of boat fabrication.
If done correctly, 1/2" ext. plywood is an excellent choice for decks and flooring.
There is no need to use solid rivets for above the waterline fasteners.
pop rivets will provide adequate holding power - while the solid rivets often require two people.
a big hassle if you are new to the rivet game.
a short video on pop rivets: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAWPo8F-gXc&t=185s

it was Pappy that advocates the super glue (thin or medium) to seal loose rivets.







.

 

[Macrosill]

Macro - fasteners above the waterline do not leak.
if by chance they are leaking, you have more severe issues than leaking rivets !


question: why do you want to use aluminum pop rivets with the SS mandrel ??
I am a big fan of aluminum angle and square tubing for any kind of boat fabrication.
If done correctly, 1/2" ext. plywood is an excellent choice for decks and flooring.
There is no need to use solid rivets for above the waterline fasteners.
pop rivets will provide adequate holding power - while the solid rivets often require two people.
a big hassle if you are new to the rivet game.
a short video on pop rivets: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAWPo8F-gXc&t=185s

it was Pappy that advocates the super glue (thin or medium) to seal loose rivets.






.

I have read here on Tin Boats that the aluminum rivets with stainless steel mandrels hold better than the aluminum mandrels because the stainless takes more force to snap thereby clamping with more force before snapping. Just what I read. Is this really not a concern?

As for the solid rivets above the water line, I guess it is somewhat of a psychological thing. Holes in a hull are bad! LOL. The areas I plan on mounting angle to the hull are reachable on both sides by one person. Mostly withing 6-18 inches below the gunwales, well within arms reach.

 

[Macrosill]

As for the aluminum framing, I plan on using standard pop rivets. I have seen some use 2, 3 or even 4 rivets per joint. How many rivets per joint are really necessary?

Any aluminum framing tips?

I am thinking of going with 1x1x1/8 angle. Any issue with this size angle?

1/2" plywood will be used for the decking. I am thinking of going with the same for the vertical boards as well. And probably 1/4" ply to trim out the gunwales. Any suggestion against that plan?

Piano hinges for the storage lids.

I was planning on carpet but now may go vinyl. Maybe a mix of vinyl for the main floor and carpet for the rest.

Planning on a layout like this :

 

[Johnny]

pertaining to the solid rivets: I just ran across an older thread
authored by our local RivetMeister and Metallurgist, DaleH.

"Typically the length of the tail of the unformed rivet should protrude
about 1-1/2 to 2 times the rivet shank diameter from the back side
of the surface being riveted. And when bucked properly, the tail will
expand or 'mushroom' to about 1-1/2 times the rivet shank diameter.

A good tip is to practice riveting, as only a few will let you know if your parts
and technique are sound. 'Tis better to waste some rivets and some
scrap materials beforehand than to blow it because one couldn't be bothered to test their setup.

Be aware that too much of a tail can cause the rivet to tilt off-center
and not seal as good as a properly cut-to-length rivet. Worse it can egg the hole ..."





.

 

[BigTerp]

Don't be afraid of solid rivets below the waterline. I was hesitant at first to do this to mine as well, but did not have a choice when I replaced my transom. Properly set solid rivets with a dab of 5200 are watertight. I've not had a problem with any that I have done in the past 3-4 years, and I'm pretty hard on my boat. I put a little 5200 on all of my solid rivets, even if they are above the waterline. Although I don't think it's necessary to do so above the waterline. I do not use any 5200 on my blind (pop) rivets that I used for framing and securing my floor and deck.

I used 1" x 1" x 1/8" angle for the framing fastened with closed end aluminum blind rivets on my boat and it's rock solid. I don't remember the spacing I used for the rivets though. I also used aluminum sheet as opposed to wood for my floor and extended deck. The pros to going all aluminum are weight and durability. The cons are cost and it's not as easy to work with as wood. IMO, aluminum is superior to wood for framing and flooring in our type of boats. But if you go with aluminum for your framing and wood for your floor/decks, it will still be a nice upgrade. It will save you a bit of weight and if your flooring ever needs replaced it will be an easier swap to just replace the floor and not have to worry with redoing all the framing.

 

[Macrosill]

I have been fixated on the storage lid hinges. I am trying to come up with a hinge that will be hidden under the deck but still allow the storage lids to fold over completely. Piano hinges protrude above the decking slightly.

In my search I found these:

https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/32854309

I am not sure if they will clear 1" when opened, 1/2 " for the deck and 1/2" for the lid. I may order one to try.

Has anyone found something similar or already solved my dilemma with something I have not seen yet?

edit: Another option I just thought of is to have some sort of support under the deck so I can mount a standard euro type hinge on a vertical surface of the deck and then the lid would only have to open 90 degrees. This may be a better way to go. Thoughts?

 

[Macrosill]

After searching through pages and pages of mod builds I am thinking about removing all the seats and start with an empty hull. Then lay down a complete floor, bow to stern. Then start my build from there. instead of piecing sections between the 2 remaining seats.

I would add foam under the floor the entire length as well as any unused crevices to make up for the lost foam from the seats. Also the aluminum angle I will be using to build the platforms would replace the seats that connect the gunwales together. And the side storage areas will replace some of the strength that was lost when the middle seat was removed.

Thoughts on starting with an empty hull vs keeping to front and rear seat in place and working around them?

 

[Johnny]

.

in my world, that is exactly what I would do and have done in the past.
starting from a fresh canvas is always the path of least resistance.
try not to poke holes in the hull that you can't patch yourself.

good plan !!






.

 

[Macrosill]

Finally found a build that is close to what I am planning.

https://forum.tinboats.net/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=32265&hilit=aluminum+angle&start=75

 

[Johnny]

good find !

I know it is a long way down the river, but, the hinge photo that
you posted is made of steel - it will rust. (there may be stainless ones available).
I have never seen it before. I am guessing you mount it like a kitchen cabinet door ??







The piano hinge that I have used is like this one.
it comes in brass, aluminum and stainless.
assorted sizes, standard 6' length. fits flush with the deck. (no trip hazard).
it is not for a waterproof hatch.
you would have to google it for a source.
hatch covers and hinges are another hot topic on the forum.

good luck



.

 

[richg99]

You might find something here..

https://www.overtons.com/?s_kwcid=adwords_overton_&device=c&network=g&matchtype=p&gclid=CjwKEAiA8dDEBRDf19yI97eO0UsSJAAY_yCSS8phwoi_GBZZzC5l7gG8SsGOZpjjRqKuhTv5Lp8dmRoCjubw_wcB

richg99

 

[Macrosill]

good find !

I know it is a long way down the river, but, the hinge photo that
you posted is made of steel - it will rust. (there may be stainless ones available).
I have never seen it before. I am guessing you mount it like a kitchen cabinet door ??
View attachment 3
View attachment 2



View attachment 1

The piano hinge that I have used is like this one.
it comes in brass, aluminum and stainless.
assorted sizes, standard 6' length. fits flush with the deck. (no trip hazard).
it is not for a waterproof hatch.
you would have to google it for a source.
hatch covers and hinges are another hot topic on the forum.

good luck



.

Aluminum version: https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/32854341?fromRR=Y
but it is listed for over 16 dollars each. Ouch!

I did not know they made piano type hinges that sit flush to the deck. Do those hinges allow the lid to fold open completely and rest on the deck or do they keep the lid up in the air?

 

[Macrosill]

You might find something here..

https://www.overtons.com/?s_kwcid=adwords_overton_&device=c&network=g&matchtype=p&gclid=CjwKEAiA8dDEBRDf19yI97eO0UsSJAAY_yCSS8phwoi_GBZZzC5l7gG8SsGOZpjjRqKuhTv5Lp8dmRoCjubw_wcB

richg99

Thanks for the link Rich.

 

[Johnny]

the offset marine piano hinge folds all the way back
and the hatch cover will lay flat on the deck.

Please excuse my rudimentary drawing

I have some of these hinges in a box somewhere.
I recently moved and all boat stuff is still boxed up.

examples of how the offset marine hinge looks with carpet

 

[Macrosill]

No tripping hazard and opens flat, Perfect!

 

[Macrosill]

Under deck storage? I see some use Rubbermaid type totes for their storage compartments. I do not plan on a live well as I catch and release 100 percent. I plan on the bow compartment to just be open to stow the anchor, life jackets and such. I will have 2, maybe 3 more storage compartments in the bow. 1 for the 2 batteries and the other 2 for general fishing supplies. Side lockers, maybe for rods or just general storage. In the rear I am not planning on any storage as of now.

Thoughts on using tote bins vs just plywood storage compartments?

If using plywood lines storage, carpet vs paint?

 

[mrdrh99]

I'm about to do mine and I'm going to fit plastic containers that can lift out if needed.

 

[Macrosill]

The plan thus far:
1" x 1/8 aluminum angle for the framing. Currently planning on 15 6' lengths. I still have to measure to make sure that is enough.
3/16 x 1/2" aluminum pop rivets. Some solid aluminum rivets where the framing needs to be secured to the outer hull.
1/2" plywood for the decking.
Vinyl or paint for the main floor and carpet for the upper decking.
Offset piano type hinges for the storage lids with recessed latches.
Storage compartments made of plywood. Probably painted vs carpet.
All wood sealed with either paint or old timers formula base on finish type.
Pink or blue foam stuffed in any available space not utilized by storage compartments.

Thoughts and/or suggestions?