2020 Yamaha F25 Question

[wmk0002]

Been doing a lot of research lately on the current model Tohatsu 25 and Yamaha 25 outboards as I hope to buy/order a new outboard in the next couple of weeks. Ignoring the weight differences often discussed on here between the two, 2 features on the Tohatsu stand out and are the basis to my question regarding the Yamaha. The 2 Tohatsu features is the option for tilt/trim on a short shaft model (short is what I need) and also has a longer & more ergonomic tiller handle which would be quite useful given my rear deck is 4' long (not split bench or anything) and the motor has 6" of setback.

My question regarding the Yamaha is can I mount a tiller like the one pictured below on the short shaft model Yamaha F25? I have seen elsewhere and from Daisycutter (?) on here that this can be done on the longshaft, remote models with factory trim, however, I cant tell if it will work on the other models. It appears that it would bolt up but I'm not sure about the electrical connections nor the throttle/shift cables. I would assume that all F25 models are identical under the hood meaning the 12 pin harness from the big tiller would be plug and play and the cables would be no issue as long as the correct length ones are used. I actually do own this tiller already as it was destined for another Yamaha project which I abandoned. If I were to be able to go this route it would be nice as it would be able to easily connect my aftermarket trim unit to the trim switch wires in the tiller (just basic bullet connectors) to give me full functionality. And given I hold onto the factory tiller, I could revert back to it if I change hulls to something with a winged or split deck/bench.

 

[LDUBS]

I hear a lot of good things about Yamahas. But for this 25 HP, it is two cylinder vs 3 cylinder for the Tohatsu. A concern, which may or may not be valid, is if the 2 cylinder motor would not run as smooth. I would sure check with others on that.

Sorry, can't help with the question about the tiller handle.

 

[wmk0002]

I hear a lot of good things about Yamahas. But for this 25 HP, it is two cylinder vs 3 cylinder for the Tohatsu. A concern, which may or may not be valid, is if the 2 cylinder motor would not run as smooth. I would sure check with others on that.

Sorry, can't help with the question about the tiller handle.

Yeah it seems to be a topic of much debate on this forum. There are enough differences between the two that it really makes it an apples to oranges comparison in many ways. I've now moved past the features/specs and am looking closely at each manufacturer's warranty terms and looking at common problems and when they occur. So far only issues I have read up on from the Tohatsu are an oil leak (which a Tohatsu rep acknowledged they did have back in 2016 but have since corrected) and seen a bit about the Yamaha's "making oil' even after correctly breaking them in. Surprisingly the Tohatsu with e-start & tilt/trim is $4500 while the Yamaha with only e-start is $3500. I assumed the Yamaha would be higher or at least similarly priced.

 

[turbotodd]

yeah it shakes a little at idle. Soon as you throttle up, over about 1100 RPM, it goes away. It is also better with age. Mine's got 40 hours or so on it, I don't notice it much now but it does still have a little shake in it. I find it pretty easy to tilt manually. About 5x easier than my old 2000 model was. Not only is the newer motor lighter by about 20 lbs (or 60 lbs compared to the F25A and B models). Yamaha moved the weight more towards the fore end of the outboard which helps you tilt it manually, in comparison to the old one--where the powerhead was honestly too far aft making it impossible to manually tilt.

The Yamaha tiller (factory installed on short shaft and long shaft manual tilt models) is longer than the Tohatsu. It is also angled toward the starboard side a little bit making it ergonomically correct. You don't notice it but it is. I noticed it right away, coming from a 2000 model Yamaha F25 which has the short tiller sticking straight out from the port side similar to Suzuki.

The big tiller does not "bolt right on" to a F25 short shaft non-remote. In order to get the big tiller, you have to order a remote steer motor and add the tiller kit, which also adds cost. If you want power tilt, you either have to use a short shaft on a PT35 or PT130 add-on PT&T, OR you have to use a long shaft remote, then buy the tiller and fitting kit (about $600 last time I looked). I hate the way they do that. Why. Just WHY can't Yamaha offer a PT&T short shaft? But in defense, the Tohatsu is power tilt only. Once you get underway, and above about 1/4 throttle or so, it won't trim. Just tilt, at low speeds and neutral only. Beats tilting it manually though.

VERY ironic that you've questioned this, too. I am in the research phase currently, trying to make the grip and tilt switch fit my 18 model F25. I have not ordered any parts as of yet. The grip itself isn't too terribly expensive, it's the switch ($130+) assembly. I picked up a used PT-35 for mine. I was going to give it to dad but dad's boat has more weight on the stern than it needs already and I can't think of any good reason to make it even worse. If anyone has a 6X4-82563-00-00 tiller switch assembly I could use it for R&D. There was another site that addressed the "OLD" style 25 (2 stroke) yamaha's putting the tilt switch in the tiller and that was slick, however that grip is totally different than the F25C model, even different than the F25A & B for that matter. I'd like for it to just bolt on, run the wire through the handle, and hook it up.

My goal is to run the PT35 with a tiller-mounted PT&T switch, that is IF I can make it work.

The 3 cylinder engines are all heavier, and honestly the Suzuki was a little on the noisy side once underway. Didn't impress me much, but the idle quality was nicer than the Yamaha F25C. The Tohatsu was a little noisy in the foot (gear whine), it ran well, but I felt as if it was underpowered for some reason. Maybe it was the hull; don't know. Just felt odd. It was a 2020 model, the old ones were REALLY heavy and really really sluggish in comparison. Mercury is the same as the Tohatsu, just rebadged.

 

[wmk0002]

Thanks Todd. Great info as always. I knew you would chime in

I have not put my hands on an F25 yet. I went to my dealer a few weeks back but they only had a 20 on display. I know they are the same platform as the 25 but they do have a different tiller for sure. I let them know I would be coming so they are supposed to be taking one out of their warehouse and setting it up for me to check out next week. I will say Yamaha did mess up the F25 in regards to the trim option. It's apparent they built it to be a portable model based on the weight, ergonomics, and the carrying handles so why do they make the longshaft remote version so different? I know typically remote models are permanently mounted but still. Doesn't seem like much effort to add their already existing trim switch the tiller F25...I know the longshaft trim version has a different clamp setup as it has BIA bolt pattern but seem like that could also be added to a short shaft to allow the trim? But that is what it is I guess.

On the Tohatsu, are you sure their model big tiller is shorter than the Yamaha standard F25 one? They way I read it, the Tohatsu 25 with trim/e-start have it as well as models with just electric start, but the basic pull start only models have a smaller tiller like all the models 5+ years ago. Not sure what hp motor this is but this is the same tiller the 25s come with (also note the adapter for a yamaha trim switch). I measured one on a motor at the dealer that was mounted directly on the transom and it was ~30" from the inside of the transom to the tip of the grip. And good info on the til/trim...they say 'tilt/trim switch' in the user manual I downloaded so kind of misleading on their part.

Regarding the trim switch.... Yamaha definitely has the best and it is almost comical that other manufacturers haven't copied it. Maybe they put it on the tiller side vs the grip in hopes people wont trim on plane? Some guy out your way named Ryan Ashby makes custom inserts for the yamaha trim switch, only issue he charges over $100 and you still have to supply the switch yourself. A few other places sell similar products which include the adapter and switch for about $250 which is a lot of cheese. I would suggest looking at the Etec grip if you arent familiar with it. Not sure if it will fit easily but Ive read people putting it on the Tohatsu big tillers. They are cheap too...can get the new grip and switch for the end of it for about $60.

 

[wmk0002]

Not sure if picture will show since it's from a site requiring login. If it doesn't let me know. This Etec switch rotates with the handle but many prefer that over the fixed Yamaha one. If it works, it's tough to argue the price though. And if you dont like it, you can replace with a new factory for $10 and all you did was drill a hole down the center for the 3 trim wires.

 

[wmk0002]

A couple more pics of the trim switch adapter like shown above on the Tohatsu. Credits to Delta Customs Facebook page.

 

[turbotodd]

I am at work, and have a F40 on display. So I pulled my tiller grip off of my F25C to see if it would fit the F40 big tiller. No dice. Not even CLOSE. Completely different design. My thought was that if the grip would fit the F40 (which is a 6X4 tiller kit), I could make the OEM tiller grip-mounted PT&T switch fit the F25C. No way.

The F25C throttle grip is a completely different design than the old style. It even carries it's own part number prefix (6FM). it is weighted on the end, in other words the throttle grip is kinda heavy, which helps reduce the felt vibration in your hand. With that said, adapting a switch to the end of it means drillilng through some serious material, I stuck my super duper neodymium magnet and yes it sticks, so there's some metal inside of it--that will make it fun to run a wire though for sure.

In my case, back to square one. Since it is completely different than the 6X4 tiller, and different than the old style grip, back to square one.

The new Tohatsu's tiller IS long, but I still don't think it has the ergonomical quality as the yamaha standard F25 tiller does. The tohatsu I seen/used must have been the older one, now that I have looked at a brand new '20 model, yeah it's bigger. Bulky if you ask me but I'm sure I'd get used to it.

 

[wmk0002]

That's a bummer. If you make any headway on adapting the switch let us know. If I get the F25 I will for sure want to do a trim switch mod. You know of a place I could look at a parts diagram for the current F25 tiller assembly so I could take a look myself?

 

[LDUBS]

It is a shame that Tohatsu says tilt/trim but only provides tilt. I'm actually kind of shocked.

For a small light boat, that reacts to just about any change in weight placement, having the power trim is a pretty nice feature. On my previous 15' side console, my 25 Merc had power tilt/trim. What a difference.

 

[wmk0002]

I picked up a used PT-35 for mine.

I have a Panther 55. It works fine but I really don't like it. Combination of being slow to trim, and it just sounding weird. Does the PT-35 have a BIA bolt pattern? The panther does so if I ever change it will need that bolt pattern. I know the PT-135 does but that seems like over kill plus I imagine it's heavier.

 

[wmk0002]

I picked up a used PT-35 for mine.

I have a Panther 55. It works fine but I really don't like it. Combination of being slow to trim, and it just sounding weird. Does the PT-35 have a BIA bolt pattern? The panther does so if I ever change it will need that bolt pattern. I know the PT-130 does but that seems like over kill plus I imagine it's heavier.

 

[wmk0002]

Just got back from the dealer and was able to look at the Yamaha in person. I measured the distance from the back of the motor bracket (where it would interface with back of the transom) as 27". That's an extra foot longer than my 30 Yamaha' tiller and just 3" shorter than the Tohatsu tiller. Since the tiller doesn't seem like it will be a compromise and paired with the much lower price of the Yamaha plus lower weight, I think I am going with the Yamaha F25 for sure now. I do wish the warranty was a little longer but I can live with that.

 

[turbotodd]

Keep any eye on Yamaha's website. Sometimes in the summer they'll start a promotional sales program where you would be eligible for extended warranty. It was available in 18 when I bought mine, HOWEVER, since I worked at a dealer I wasn't eligible for the promotions. 1 Aug is coming up, sometimes they'll start new programs on the first of the month, and sometimes the old ones expire at the end of the month. Worth looking into.

 

[wmk0002]

I asked the guy at the dealer and he didn't seem to be aware of any upcoming ones. He said their business has been booming basically since the covid stuff started so Yamaha may not see the need to offer any more incentives. Either way they have a handful in stock and the plan is to go up there today and by it and get it hung on my boat.

 

[turbotodd]

might be too late...

but Yamaha NEVER EVER gives information out beforehand, and I mean never. I've tried to pry it from them....no luck. Basically nobody but them knows until it actually happens. IT would not make any good sense to let everyone know that they're fixing to put them on sale a week before the first of the month, then the end of month sales quotas could not be met, Yamaha's sales would drop off at end of month, etc etc.

The prior 25's were joint ventures with Mercury, Merc helped develop the old twin cylinder 4 stroke 25, yamaha designed the leg/foot/clamps/etc. But the powerhead was "mostly" mercury. It was obvious on the early model F25's (98-06), there were some mercury part numbers on the harness, cdi, etc if you looked close enough. The new 25 (F25C) is all Yamaha. I want to say I had a hand in the original design of the new motor, however when I was told that my ideas were going to be used, I was ecstatic. Then a couple years later, the new F25C shows up, totally different than what we had talked about. They are real secretive. They have to be. If I knew that the new F25C was going to be what it is, and if anyone else did, there would've been a big race to develop something lighter and faster, sooner than Yamaha, which would have destroyed their advantage. So they surprised everyone.

 

[wmk0002]

Thanks Todd. I bought the motor yesterday so no going back now lol.

I do like the tiller. It’s a pretty good fit for my boat and would be perfect if it was clamped right in the transom without setback. Really though the shifter being farther forward is the nicest thing. I mounted the tach to the rubber part on the handle where the throttle cables are routed. I’ll be looking for ways to mount a trim switch conveniently as well.

 

[turbotodd]

There's what the throttle looks like. Big heavy piece of steel inside of the plastic part, and the rubber grip goes to the outside. I have an idea to make an OEM trim switch work in the end of the throttle grip, however I don't have a switch assembly on hand yet to try. I have one ordered. Lot going on this week so I don't know if I will get a chance to update it right away.

 

[wmk0002]

There's what the throttle looks like. Big heavy piece of steel inside of the plastic part, and the rubber grip goes to the outside. I have an idea to make an OEM trim switch work in the end of the throttle grip, however I don't have a switch assembly on hand yet to try. I have one ordered. Lot going on this week so I don't know if I will get a chance to update it right away.

IMG_5224.JPG

Ah, I see. I saw the inner part on a parts site but wasn't sure if it was for this model motor or not. Keep me updated!

I had actually just logged on to search your posts to see what prop you were running on this motor. I recall it being a turbo but was curious what pitch you are using? I took a break from working at home and went to the lake and got the first 1.5 hrs of break in done. After that first hour I opened up to WOT a couple times to see what it did and I was getting 28mph at 5850 rpms. Didn't feel comfortable keeping it there until I get a little more time on (just trying to follow the recommended break in closely). I know I'm set a little low so once I get that adjusted and able to run it up to WOT and trim it accordingly I'll see what it can do. I have a worked 10" pitch SRA3 and factory 13" SRA3 from my Yamaha 30 I can try later on....assuming they are the same number of splines.

 

[turbotodd]

Turbo 11" pitch hotshot.

-But-

now on the CMC, I need more pitch. Went to lake yesterday and did some adjusting on the CMC and motor height, still too low, bouncing hard on the limiter at 30.0 mph with the 11" which shows to be 3% slip which I think is good, but I need to borrow or pick up a 12" to try. "Bust out another thousand" :lol:

Side note--> while standing barefoot in the lake in trying to lift the motor up another hole, I stepped on I guess a snapping turtle and it took a chunk off of my left foot. Not severe enough to warrant any stitches, but it sure does hurt, so I'm probably not gonna be doing much for the next few days.