Corona Virus

[LDUBS]

Folks, Ive completely changed my mind about this thing and while I will comply with the mask issue and all, I now believe there is no way of stopping this and it is not as bad as is or has been reported.

A study I found on the effectiveness of masks and my observations.

https://www.rcreader.com/commentary/masks-dont-work-covid-a-review-of-science-relevant-to-covide-19-social-policy


My observations.

I walk around at work all day in a population of 1200 workers, 700 of which are on my shift. Most of my co workers are black and 70% of those are from third world countries, predominantly Haiti and Liberia. These are for the most part all good hard working people who appreciate their chance at becoming Americans than many natural Americans do. They want nothing to do with the "Thug life" or Gangster BS we see in the inner cities where unfortunately they are first forced to live, good people overall and hard workers.


However, having said that, their hygiene in some areas is less than desirable. Eating foods with their hands without washing before or after is common and dont even get me started on their bathroom habits. :shock: Eating a sandwich while taking a dump and talking on the phone should give you an idea without going into too much detail of how much worse things I have witnessed, bit I digress.


Now, what I have found out, and by my estimate the numbers are low, is that people touch their face roughly 30-45 times an hour. Add in an uncomfortable mask that wont stay in place and the need to remove it and put it back on several times an hour and who knows what the numbers are.

Each time you touch your mask you contaminate it. Think about that. You contaminate the very thing they tell you is protecting you hundreds of times a day.

Taking all that into consideration, in our plant we should be literally dropping like flies, yet its not happening.

Out of 1200 people, with a roughly 50-60 person turnover a month we have had only 35 cases and have only shut down for "Sanitizing" one day total in four months.


Based on my observations in less than ideal conditions, for me things arent adding up.

I should have contracted this by now or be dead as Im 52 and have several so called comorbidity.

Make of this what you will, but for me every day I dont catch thin my feelings slide evermore towards this being largely overblown.

This from someone who went out in mid Jan and bought several hundreds of dollars worth of canned goods and stores ready to hunker down inside for a few months.

The study you reference in your link has pretty much been debunked. They guy cherrypicked a bunch of older studies in a misleading and unscientific way to generate some sensationalism. That is a huge problem with the internet. It is easy to find plenty of proof for whatever is it we want to believe.

Unless your shop is testing 100% of staff routinely, then you really don't know how many are walking around with CV-19. Not everyone shows symptoms. Nor do you know how many others outside of your shop have been infected by those 35 confirmed cases as well as the asymptomatic ones. Even with a low rate of spread, say an R-number of 1.1 (one infected person will infect 1.1 others on average), one positive case will cause 25 others to be infected within 2 months. That means without any precautions, the 35 known positives will have caused more than 800 infections within a couple of months. And, CV-19 is thought to have an infection rate much higher than this example. Sadly if some of those 800 happen to be at-risk (elderly, etc) then risk of death is significant. For CV-19, I read of R-numbers of anywhere from 2 to 6. By taking prevention steps, like distancing and/or wearing masks, we can reduce the rate of spread hopefully to a value of less than 1.0.


I tend to ignore politicians, news talk shows, and the celebrity experts (including those that pop up out of nowhere). I try to pay attention to our Public Health officials. I admit they are not perfect but those who follow their advice seem to do better.

So, I would encourage everyone to pull together to protect our at-risk citizens and help manage this pandemic by social distancing and where that can't happen, wear a mask. It is so simple and easy I don't understand why there is even a debate.

 

[JL8Jeff]

I thought I heard that CDC tests or studies from 2015 showed that cloth masks did very poorly in stopping the transmission of flu particles. The N95 masks worked well. but since the Covid19 particles are even smaller than the flu, the cloth masks don't really do much in that respect. Add to that issues with moisture retention and too many layers could limit oxygen intake and they might do more harm than good. But like you said, the internet has so much twisted information nowadays, you can't really believe anything. It's obviously still spreading so whether it's through particles in the air or on surfaces that people touch, we don't seem to have a real good answer to that. I personally think that the spread that happened in NY and NJ was from people using mass transit. Someone from my town got it months ago and he takes the train to NY for work. I think one of the interesting concepts is that every virus has a certain percentage of infection before it burns itself out. A rough example is if you say that 50% of the people in NY/NJ have already been exposed/infected. If 25% of them were asymptomatic then that would mean the next round wouldn't be worse than the first round. So the other 50% of the people left who could get it, 25% are asymptomatic and it won't bother them. NY/NJ have overinflated death rates due to the nursing home debacle so the next round should have a lower death rate. I'm hoping our area has been through the worst at this point but who knows. IMO, the mask thing should be up to the business that you are visiting. And any smart business owner would require masks to protect their patrons and workers. But even with the masks, I see so many workers fiddling with them constantly so anything on the mask is now on their hands/gloves and can easily be transmitted to patrons. I don't think we have any good answers or valid studies to justify either position. I'm not a germaphobe but I have always made sure to wash my hands often to protect myself and others. I haven't had a cold in almost 3 years so I think the washing thing really works.

 

[CedarRiverScooter]

I get a kick when I see peeps wearing a mask on their chin. What's the point?

 

[RaisedByWolves]

Folks, Ive completely changed my mind about this thing and while I will comply with the mask issue and all, I now believe there is no way of stopping this and it is not as bad as is or has been reported.

A study I found on the effectiveness of masks and my observations.

https://www.rcreader.com/commentary/masks-dont-work-covid-a-review-of-science-relevant-to-covide-19-social-policy


My observations.

I walk around at work all day in a population of 1200 workers, 700 of which are on my shift. Most of my co workers are black and 70% of those are from third world countries, predominantly Haiti and Liberia. These are for the most part all good hard working people who appreciate their chance at becoming Americans than many natural Americans do. They want nothing to do with the "Thug life" or Gangster BS we see in the inner cities where unfortunately they are first forced to live, good people overall and hard workers.


However, having said that, their hygiene in some areas is less than desirable. Eating foods with their hands without washing before or after is common and dont even get me started on their bathroom habits. :shock: Eating a sandwich while taking a dump and talking on the phone should give you an idea without going into too much detail of how much worse things I have witnessed, bit I digress.


Now, what I have found out, and by my estimate the numbers are low, is that people touch their face roughly 30-45 times an hour. Add in an uncomfortable mask that wont stay in place and the need to remove it and put it back on several times an hour and who knows what the numbers are.

Each time you touch your mask you contaminate it. Think about that. You contaminate the very thing they tell you is protecting you hundreds of times a day.

Taking all that into consideration, in our plant we should be literally dropping like flies, yet its not happening.

Out of 1200 people, with a roughly 50-60 person turnover a month we have had only 35 cases and have only shut down for "Sanitizing" one day total in four months.


Based on my observations in less than ideal conditions, for me things arent adding up.

I should have contracted this by now or be dead as Im 52 and have several so called comorbidity.

Make of this what you will, but for me every day I dont catch thin my feelings slide evermore towards this being largely overblown.

This from someone who went out in mid Jan and bought several hundreds of dollars worth of canned goods and stores ready to hunker down inside for a few months.

The study you reference in your link has pretty much been debunked. They guy cherrypicked a bunch of older studies in a misleading and unscientific way to generate some sensationalism. That is a huge problem with the internet. It is easy to find plenty of proof for whatever is it we want to believe.

Unless your shop is testing 100% of staff routinely, then you really don't know how many are walking around with CV-19. Not everyone shows symptoms. Nor do you know how many others outside of your shop have been infected by those 35 confirmed cases as well as the asymptomatic ones. Even with a low rate of spread, say an R-number of 1.1 (one infected person will infect 1.1 others on average), one positive case will cause 25 others to be infected within 2 months. That means without any precautions, the 35 known positives will have caused more than 800 infections within a couple of months. And, CV-19 is thought to have an infection rate much higher than this example. Sadly if some of those 800 happen to be at-risk (elderly, etc) then risk of death is significant. For CV-19, I read of R-numbers of anywhere from 2 to 6. By taking prevention steps, like distancing and/or wearing masks, we can reduce the rate of spread hopefully to a value of less than 1.0.


I tend to ignore politicians, news talk shows, and the celebrity experts (including those that pop up out of nowhere). I try to pay attention to our Public Health officials. I admit they are not perfect but those who follow their advice seem to do better.

So, I would encourage everyone to pull together to protect our at-risk citizens and help manage this pandemic by social distancing and where that can't happen, wear a mask. It is so simple and easy I don't understand why there is even a debate.

I have a full beard, a mask is doing doodle squat especially given that I touch it a hundred times a day.

That’s not a study, it’s a fact.

 

[RaisedByWolves]

I thought I heard that CDC tests or studies from 2015 showed that cloth masks did very poorly in stopping the transmission of flu particles. The N95 masks worked well. but since the Covid19 particles are even smaller than the flu, the cloth masks don't really do much in that respect. Add to that issues with moisture retention and too many layers could limit oxygen intake and they might do more harm than good. But like you said, the internet has so much twisted information nowadays, you can't really believe anything. It's obviously still spreading so whether it's through particles in the air or on surfaces that people touch, we don't seem to have a real good answer to that. I personally think that the spread that happened in NY and NJ was from people using mass transit. Someone from my town got it months ago and he takes the train to NY for work. I think one of the interesting concepts is that every virus has a certain percentage of infection before it burns itself out. A rough example is if you say that 50% of the people in NY/NJ have already been exposed/infected. If 25% of them were asymptomatic then that would mean the next round wouldn't be worse than the first round. So the other 50% of the people left who could get it, 25% are asymptomatic and it won't bother them. NY/NJ have overinflated death rates due to the nursing home debacle so the next round should have a lower death rate. I'm hoping our area has been through the worst at this point but who knows. IMO, the mask thing should be up to the business that you are visiting. And any smart business owner would require masks to protect their patrons and workers. But even with the masks, I see so many workers fiddling with them constantly so anything on the mask is now on their hands/gloves and can easily be transmitted to patrons. I don't think we have any good answers or valid studies to justify either position. I'm not a germaphobe but I have always made sure to wash my hands often to protect myself and others. I haven't had a cold in almost 3 years so I think the washing thing really works.

One of the most damning things I have read is that a fart droplet is three times the size of a cough droplet.

If it doesn't stop a fart, it’s not stopping a virus.

 

[handyandy]

yeah I'm really worried about how bad things may get economically after the gov't finally decides to quit the handouts. What I find interesting about covid is that in healthy people some are really affected by it get a terrible fever, can't hardly do anything, and some do have to go to the hospital, and some healthy people do die from it. Yet some are hardly affected and/or don't even know they have/had it. It's bad, but I really do think it's been blown out of proportion, and I hate how inaccurately the numbers of cases/deaths are reported. We keep hearing about the rise in cases recently, but what isn't told is how many are cases form people testing positive that just got tested, but never got that sick. I'm always curious as to how many of these cases are people that are really sick that had to go to the doctor or hospital cause they were ill. I'd like to know how many of these cases are people that just decided to get tested just to see if they have it, or had it now that testing is being done all over, but they never had any bad symptoms. How many people have honestly died from it that were otherwise fine and not at a near end of life age already?

I know of one person that died from it. Of people I know at work that have tested positive, I haven't heard of any of them being so ill they had to go to the hospital. The person I know that died was a friends mother who was in her early 90's and had been in a nursing home the last couple years. It's horrible that she died, she tested positive covid, but I really don't count that as a covid death. I mean a feeble 92 year old dying, to me that's just dying from old age.

My grandmother died a few years ago at 92 as well. Her cause of death was falling into a diabetic comma, but really she was 92 she died of old age. She was never overweight, or that unhealthy she was diagnosed with diabetes in her late 80's. We were kind of baffled when she was diagnosed with diabetes, since most people that get it as an adult are typically overweight and out of shape for a long while. Doc said it just happens sometimes with old age the body doesn't work like it use to, but many people get it sooner from being fat and out of shape all their lives. Anyways I don't really consider my grandmother deaths cause from diabetes, I consider it to be from old age. She was old she lived a long good life and at some point something gets you cause your old and your body just can't fight it. Sure I guess diabetes was what ultimately killed her, but in reality she was old, she had dementia pretty bad, she could barely get around with a walker, she was feeble old woman at the end of her life span. I feel a lot of the covid deaths are from similar situations.

 

[LDUBS]

Kind of random in response to some of the comments shared.

I want the economy to open as much as anyone. Right now we should all be helping by wearing masks and keeping social distancing. It is irresponsible to not wear a mask and expose others. Masks are not optional if you are a responsible person.

No one claims masks are 100% effective. But until we have a vaccine they, along with social distancing, are the best defense we have to control spread. Claims that masks provide no protection are utter nonsense. If you truly believe that, the next time you have surgery, tell your surgeon not to wear a mask.

My wife’s grandmother passed when she was 99 years old. I doubt she would have agreed her life had no value after 90. 82% of covid-19 deaths happen to people 66 years and older. 63% for 75 & older. There is no magic age limit where life no longer has value. So far 143,000 Americans have died from coronavirus in the last 5 months. All but 26,000 were us old people. Did some have dementia, sure. Were some short for this world, sure. But I’ll bet any amount of money you care to wager the vast majority of those 117,000 would prefer to still be alive today.

After being hit so hard, New York and others are now seeing some of the lowest rates of positive tests in the country. That is terrific news but it does not mean it is a good model to follow. If extending the NY example to other populous areas means the same death rate, we would see something in excess of 500,000 deaths. No one wants that.

Yesterday, over 60,000 new cases happened and 498 people died in America. And someone has concerns about wearing a mask because of their beard. Trim it for gosh sake. But even if you don’t, when you cough into your mask you will capture a significant amount of what would otherwise be projected to the people around you. Do the right thing. Wear a mask.

It is time for Americans to put their personal needs & biases aside and pull together. And hey, if it turns out masks were not useful, no one really lost much did they.

 

[RaisedByWolves]

If masks are the answer why are businesses closing and tanking the economy?

As to the surgeon question no, but I wouldn’t want one operating on me with a mask he’s adjusted after touching every available surface he’s come into contact with in the past three days either.

I’m a trained first responder and mask/glove protocols are a huge deal both for you and the patient.

Ask any medically trained person what they think of the average persons mask protocol and they will reply with either a laugh or “What protocol?”

 

[LDUBS]

I don't think, or at least hope, that anyone one is saying masks are the answer. Masks are just one of the ways we have to control spread. Let's remember one of the bad things about this virus is a lot of people are walking around with it without even knowing. That makes it easy to spread. I wear a mask when I'm in public. The risk of my spreading the virus are reduced. Simple as that.

I would offer that businesses are closing because we have not been able to manage the virus. Meaning it continues to spread in many places in the US.

Of course the average person isn't going to have the same knowledge as a medically trained person. That is not a valid argument to not wear a mask in public to decrease spread of the virus. Try using that excuse with any professional public health official and they will advise that everyone wear a mask in public.

 

[RaisedByWolves]

Found this from Mike Rowe.

Yeah, he’s a reality TV star, so is the President, deal with it their both intelligent men.

https://mikerowe.com/2020/07/im-not-ignoring-covid/

 

[KMixson]

In the service when you go for gas mask training you learn that a good seal is important. A clean shave and a tight fit are wanted. I wear a mask myself but I feel it is more for show than being effective. I have used these types of mask that they recommend while spray painting and find the paint just comes around the edges and you end up breathing the paint anyway. I use a rubber faced respirator for painting to seal out paint particles better.

 

[LDUBS]

Found this from Mike Rowe.

Yeah, he’s a reality TV star, so is the President, deal with it their both intelligent men.

https://mikerowe.com/2020/07/im-not-ignoring-covid/

Come on now, let's leave science to scientists and entertainment to celebrities.

Anyway, the entire article is Mike Rowe's praise and acceptance of Dr. Osterholm's conclusions. BTW, Dr. Osterholm recommends that masks be worn.

 

[LDUBS]

In the service when you go for gas mask training you learn that a good seal is important. A clean shave and a tight fit are wanted. I wear a mask myself but I feel it is more for show than being effective. I have used these types of mask that they recommend while spray painting and find the paint just comes around the edges and you end up breathing the paint anyway. I use a rubber faced respirator for painting to seal out paint particles better.

Many many moons ago when I was in the fire service we were not allowed beards because we were expected to wear breathing apparatus.

 

[RaisedByWolves]

Found this from Mike Rowe.

Yeah, he’s a reality TV star, so is the President, deal with it their both intelligent men.

https://mikerowe.com/2020/07/im-not-ignoring-covid/

Come on now, let's leave science to scientists and entertainment to celebrities.

Anyway, the entire article is Mike Rowe's praise and acceptance of Dr. Osterholm's conclusions. BTW, Dr. Osterholm recommends that masks be worn.

Its an opinion piecs, I agree with his opinion.

No one is saying masks should not be worn, but then again....


https://nypost.com/2020/07/24/anthony-fauci-denies-hypocrisy-after-watching-game-without-mask/

Now that he is backpedaling saying he was sipping water while clearly holding a cellphone to take a picture. :---)

And he was tested the day before? Cool, explain away the fact that you were just around a dozen or so people prepping you to throw out the first pitch.

Theres also the gaff of stating early on that the population at large wouldn't benefit from wearing a mask. #-o

Whach what people do, not what they say. :wink:

This guy seems like a master of explaining things away.

 

[LDUBS]

I saws the pic's and story about Doc Fauci not wearing the mask. One of those "do as I say" moments for sure. I have to admit I laughed when he claimed he was being picked on.

By the way, I admit that in general I would agree with most of Mike Rowe's opinions.

 

[Crazyboat]

***Disclaimer***

I'd like to start with, I don't think anyone here wants to hurt another person, period, end of story. The next to last thing I want to do is offend anyone, the last thing I want to do is take away or infringe on anyone's rights.


That said, let's start with what a right is. A right is every bit part of ones life as breathing is. In this country we are born with, not granted our rights by some government agency.


That said, we have freedom to assemble and freedom to practice the religion of our choice. Those two freedoms were taken away during the early stages of this virus. Where in the constitution or bill of rights does it say, "These rights listed are in effect unless the **** hits the fan"? Answer is, it doesn't, your rights are your rights, and the more we allow them to infringe upon them now, the more they will infringe upon them later. (Edit) Unless you were part of a riot or BLM march

They dictate that the big box stores get to remain open but mom and pop stores that sell socks, pants, shoes, must close. Why can't mom and pop shops allow 2-3 people in a store at one time to shop, to pay their bills and put food on the table, but Wal mart can allow in hundreds at a time?

How come there was no crazy numbers listed for grocery checkers infected with COVID? Because there were no high numbers?

So landlords had to swallow the loss of income from rent or stores had to pay it even though they weren't open, millions of small businesses across the country had to dig deep into their savings or go belly up due to this, why not allow adults to make adult decisions based on their own lever of assumed risk?

Kids almost never die from this, young adults rarely die from this, why not allow them to continue with their lives? I work on a passenger railroad, I worked every day, no mask, just common sense to me and my co workers precautions.

Some said their right to live trumped another's right to work, well going to work could be the difference between living and dying how many committed suicide during this outbreak? How many unfortunate kids got an extra beating every day because their abusive parent was home all the time and there was no school to escape to? How many battered wives took another beating for the same reason?

How many "fake laws" that's right, FAKE laws were you told existed that weren't real laws? To pass a law there's a process, you go through the legislature, you take the steps, this is not a dictatorship, there's got to be an ordinance past, without one there is no LAW!

So now that we've proven we live in a dictatorship (most states) we can ignore those "orders".


There are real laws on the books in many places that you cannot wear a mask in public, now they tell you you're breaking the law if you don't wear one, make up your minds.


I personally don't agree with abortion, but the my body my choice thing should hold true for everyone for all reasons. If you feel at risk, stay home, enjoy the time away from us sicko's. If I die, I'll at least die a free man, having lived my life as I saw fit. Freedom is not free, it never was, nor will it ever be, there's a price on everything. I'm willing to take that risk, hell I do so every time I step off the curb or drive my car.


I'll barrow this I recently read: "You should wear a mask, it protects me from you, just as I wear a mask to protect you from me."

So, why don't you carry a gun, it will protect me from a bad guy looking to do me harm, just as I carry a gun to protect you from a bad guy with a gun.

I don't begrudge you for wanting to protect yourself from a very real virus, just don't try infringing upon my right to feed my family and move about freely. My life is as precious to me as yours is to you, we just go about living them differently.

Sweeden and 6 states here in the US didn't have a lockdown and they turned out fine, this is about control, the govt forgets that control comes from the citizens, not from the pen. We control and limit govt, not the other way around.

Now, onto the "vaccine", the flu vaccine may work on 40% of cases every year, do you really expect me to load up my body and the body of my kids with a vaccine that is unproven at any level and then add on to it every year as this virus morphs?

IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!

 

[LDUBS]

Sweden has the seventh highest covid-19 deaths per capita in the entire world. Seventh out of over 200 countries. Yep, real facts are tough. As to bogus science claims, I will only say whether someone thinks they have a particular entitlement has no relevance whatsoever as to whether their belief is true.

In the old days people realized freedoms were earned with responsible actions. Remember the famous quote: “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country”. Now days the people think they are born entitled to do what they please, common good of our country be damned. It is all me, me, me. No wonder we are becoming the laughing stock of the world.

 

[Crazyboat]

News flash, we are born with our God Given Rights, they are not granted to us by man, nor earned, you are born with them. If you feel threatened, stay home. Don't expect me to kill my family via starvation or financial burden for anyone.

The Bill of Rights lists our rights in order to protect the smallest minority, the individual, that is me and mine, you don't get to infringe upon my rights. You speak of the old days, as if it were ancient history, I was alive when those words by JFK were spoken.

Another tidbit of information, the last time religious expression was suppressed they "lawfully" had the JEWS march onto box cars to be slaves and killed.

There was also a time in this country that they injected citizens with VD, just because.

There was this other time in this country that they put citizens into concentration camps, legally.

 

[RaisedByWolves]

***Disclaimer***

I'll barrow this I recently read: "You should wear a mask, it protects me from you, just as I wear a mask to protect you from me."

So, why don't you carry a gun, it will protect me from a bad guy looking to do me harm, just as I carry a gun to protect you from a bad guy with a gun.

You should give that borrowed analogy back, it’s pants on head tarded.

 

[Crazyboat]

***Disclaimer***

I'll barrow this I recently read: "You should wear a mask, it protects me from you, just as I wear a mask to protect you from me."

So, why don't you carry a gun, it will protect me from a bad guy looking to do me harm, just as I carry a gun to protect you from a bad guy with a gun.

You should give that borrowed analogy back, it’s pants on head tarded.

I'd say it's spot on. Maybe try something that contains constructive criticism instead of calling it "Tarded", it takes away from you.