'89 Tracker Pro 17 Investigation (lots of pics to come)

[whistler]

Most people use a wire cup brush (kinked) to remove the glue residue on metal surfaces, some use the ones for a drill and other use an angle grinder. The cup brush leaves a nice uniform roughened surface for the new glue to grab.

When using these cup brushes do you get pieces of wire flying loose from the cup occasionally hitting you?

 

[kofkorn]

My Father-in-law told me that he has some solid "buck-style" rivets available that I could use. Having no experience with these, what is the procedure for installing them? I'm guessing it's some kind of hammer/anvil situation. Can they be installed using normal hand tools??

 

[jigngrub]

[/quote]jigngrub, I always feel as if I have to justify myself before asking a "WHY" did you do this type question. I'm not second guessing you only asking. Now If I've got my rivet terminology correct your boat came with a one piece buck style rivet. You replaced it with a two piece style closed end blind pop rivet. My question is why did you select these rivets? I think I know why but maybe there's more to it than I know?[/quote]

Actually, only the hull rivets are the solid rivets... and I haven't replaced any of those... yet. All of the interior framing is put together with blind rivets from the factory. If I replace any of the solid rivets whith blind rivets (which I may have to in the future if I get a leak) it will be because the blind rivets are an easy one man job.

The closed end 1/4" aluminum blind rivets with the steel mandrel aren't your wimpy little run of the mill gutter and down spout 1/8" open end aluminum rivets. A child or woman (unless she's a very stout woman) can't set one of these rivets, it takes strength and effort to set one of these rivets. The closed end blind rivets also provide a waterproof and vaporproof seal when set properly, open end rivets do not.

Most people use a wire cup brush (kinked) to remove the glue residue on metal surfaces, some use the ones for a drill and other use an angle grinder. The cup brush leaves a nice uniform roughened surface for the new glue to grab.

When using these cup brushes do you get pieces of wire flying loose from the cup occasionally hitting you?

Yes you do!... and it is absolutely necessary to wear eye protection, and better yet a full face shield.

 

[jigngrub]

My Father-in-law told me that he has some solid "buck-style" rivets available that I could use. Having no experience with these, what is the procedure for installing them? I'm guessing it's some kind of hammer/anvil situation. Can they be installed using normal hand tools??

The solid rivets are cheaper than the blind rivets.

Installing the solid rivets requires 2 people, one on the outside of the boat to stick the rivet through the hole and the back it up with a bucking tool or piece of heavy steel like a sledge hammer head... and the second person inside of the boat hits the rivet until it flattens out to a flange. Not only is it a 2 man job, but it's a lot of beating and banging too.

Blind rivets are more expensive, but it's a quiet one man job.

 

[kofkorn]

That makes sense. I suppose that this is the same method used when trying to re-buck any leaking rivets as well. Other than cost, are there any significant benefits to one vs the other??

Thanks for the info!

 

[jigngrub]

Being able to do the job by myself when I need it done instead of having to wait for someone to find the time to come help me is a huge benefit to me.

... btw, you need to make sure that those rivets you'll be getting for free are the correct length and diameter. Those are the 2 most important things to know when installing rivets... what length and diameter do I need.

This site will help you with that.

https://www.rivetsonline.com/additional-information/solid-rivet-lengths-for-various-grips.html

They're also the place that I order my blind rivets and tools from.

Rebucking rivets is only a temporary fix, the leaking rivet has already been weakened and will eventually leak again... and if you're going to take the time and effort to rebuck a rivet, it only takes a minute longer to go ahead and drill the rivet out and replace it.

 

[kofkorn]

Well, after a day off, I managed to get a little more done today. When I finished up on Saturday, I figured that removing the livewell would be relatively easy. Just remove the rivets from within the bilge area and it should come right out along with the brace for the rear seat. And it would have been just that easy, except for one thing: the livewell drain. I don't know who the turkey was that thought it would be a good idea to encase the livewell drain hose in expanding foam, but it certainly makes removal nearly impossible.

Unfortunately, even after excavating the foam around the hose clamp and loosening it with a bunch of socket extensions, I still couldn't remove the livewell. The way the hose was attached, I needed to pivot the assembly out of the way. With the livewell attached to the front panel of the bilge and the seat support, this wasn't possible. So I needed to remove the plywood from under the seat support so I could drill out the rivets that were clamping the livewell to the bilge panel.

Once I did this, the livewell came out easily. I also removed the bilge panel and the seat support easily. One more item to the list, the livewell fill hose had a pretty severe kink in it. Not a whole lot of water getting through this:

Now I was able to see the first pieces of foam under the center of the deck. Tracker used foam panels in the middle to keep the two middle channels clear of the poured foam. These pieces are the ones that retained the most water. I pulled out one 12" x 18" piece of foam from the bottom of the boat under the livewell and weighed it. It came in at 7.4 lbs.

Now the surprising part: Most of the foam under the two side compartments was relatively clear of water. I found water in about the bottom 3/4" only. The rest of it was pretty dry.

Now removing the rest of the bilge floor is pretty easy. This gave me access to the rest of the foam under the center compartment. I estimate that I'll pull out between 80-100 lbs of waterlogged foam by the time I'm done. Not nearly as much as I expected, but now I know.

One more critter home, and some damage to the bilge vent hose. One more thing to replace. Not that the mice needed to do much to it anyway, if you looked at the vent hose wrong it fell apart.


Ok, so here is where I expect to get a bunch of opinons. With the discovery of how little water is in the foam, I am thinking of not pulling apart the two side compartments. My thought is that I can undercut the foam for each of the compartments and slide a new piece of foam under each.

This will retain most of the strength that the pour-in foam provides. I understand the argument about the quality of the older pour in foam, but from what I've been able to see so far, it is in reasonably good condition. I feel comfortable with the foam in these two compartments providing the flotation needed for the amount of time I would need to get help.

This pretty much takes care of the majority of the de-construction. I feel it went pretty well and even without finding 300 lbs of waterlogged foam, I feel that the issues I've uncovered between the water in the VRO oil, and the chewed components, I have saved myself at least as much effort as I put into it, never mind the cost of the motor if that had failed.

I am really interested in hearing any suggestions to keep any additional critters out during the winter months, as this appears to be the biggest issue this boat has seen.

So let me have it...

 

[whistler]

Actually, only the hull rivets are the solid rivets... and I haven't replaced any of those... yet. All of the interior framing is put together with blind rivets from the factory. If I replace any of the solid rivets whith blind rivets (which I may have to in the future if I get a leak) it will be because the blind rivets are an easy one man job.

Gotcha! I thought that was you in the Video. I think he was using the blind rivets in the Hull on that demo? I may be wrong but I might question whether the closed end blind rivet is up to the same standard as a bucked rivet? Easier and more convenient.....absolutely.

 

[jigngrub]

Gotcha! I thought that was you in the Video. I think he was using the blind rivets in the Hull on that demo? I may be wrong but I might question whether the closed end blind rivet is up to the same standard as a bucked rivet? Easier and more convenient.....absolutely.

If you'll read here:

https://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Rivets.html

You'll see that some blind rivets can be as strong or stronger than solid rivets.

Strength of blind rivets (compared to solid rivets )

The strength of blind rivets as given in suppliers tables is generally the ultimate strength at failure. In comparing the strength of blind rivets with conventional solid rivets (same material ) the solid rivets are generally stronger than blind rivets for the blind rivets where the blind rivet mandrel breaks off below the shear line. For the blind rivets where the mandrel breaks off above the shear line the blind rivets are generally stronger.

As I've stated before, the closed end blind rivets aren't your normal run of the mill wimpy pop rivet, and until you've used them you probably won't understand.

 

[kofkorn]

I managed to get a few more hours of work in over the past few days. I got the rest of the water logged foam removed and cleaned up. Under cutting the side compartments wasn't really as difficult as I expected it to be. I used a long sawzall blade with a hand grip and just sliced through it all and removed it in chunks. I cleared out the drain channels, as they had filled with the poured in foam.


I spent some time removing some of the glue from the aluminum decking. I tried several different methods, and I found that the fastest way was using my angle grinder with a 50 grit fiber disc. I used the knotted steel cup as well, but it doesn't remove the glue as quickly. However the 50 grit disc gives a much more aggressive surface finish than the steel cup.

Here are what I used to get the glue off. When using the knotted wire brushes, be sure to use eye protection and gloves. I can't count the number of pieces that flew off the cup while using it.

Finally today, I took it out and floated it to see if there were any leaks in the hull. I was pleasantly surprised to only find two small leaks, one coming from the livewell drain hose, and the other coming from one of the guides on the bottom of the hull. It was leaking right at the point where the weld started. I wouldn't be surprised if it came from the factory that way. You can see them both in the picture here:

Are there any suggestions to seal the leak in the guide? I'm thinking I could clean it up and then mix up some epoxy and heat it to get it to flow into the hole. It's not really a bad leak, I maybe had about 1/2 oz of water in about 20 min of floating.

I've got a few things on order, next is to finish cleaning the carpet off all of the covers and other accessories. After that I need to make a few measurements to see how much vinyl I'm going to need. Hopefully this weekend I can get the new foam cut and placed. I'm also planning on replacing the main deck plywood. I've had it sitting off to the side for a few days now and it hasn't gotten significantly drier. As a matter of fact, this morning, when I checked, it had a coat of mold over the entire surface. I'm going to get a new piece and properly seal it so I can be sure of good wood. I can always use the other piece somewhere else later.

So any suggestions to help me seal that leak?? I'd prefer to stay away from re-welding if possible.

 

[jigngrub]

Loc-tite makes a 2 part epoxy weld for metals, you can find it in the paint department of Wal-mart. I used it on a crack in my bow and it flows nicely to fill the void. Some other folks use JB weld.

Good call on replacing the lower deck plywood.

Aren't you glad you decided to go ahead and pull the decking now.

 

[whistler]

If you'll read here:

https://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Rivets.html

You'll see that some blind rivets can be as strong or stronger than solid rivets.

Strength of blind rivets (compared to solid rivets )

The strength of blind rivets as given in suppliers tables is generally the ultimate strength at failure. In comparing the strength of blind rivets with conventional solid rivets (same material ) the solid rivets are generally stronger than blind rivets for the blind rivets where the blind rivet mandrel breaks off below the shear line. For the blind rivets where the mandrel breaks off above the shear line the blind rivets are generally stronger.

jigngrub this is turning into a peeing match and that's not what I intended to do. Sorry this is happening. In your quote above I would like to ask for my better understanding what is the deciding factor as to where the mandrel breaks off? Is it the type rivet used or just a some do some don't luck of the draw type of thing?

As I've stated before, the closed end blind rivets aren't your normal run of the mill wimpy pop rivet, and until you've used them you probably won't understand.

I am aware of the type rivet you're speaking of I have several and my tool will not set them. For discussion purposes and to help everyone including myself understand and maybe learn a thing or two, how do you explain that all boat manufactures (that I've seen) use solid rivets for the hulls of their aluminum boats. All of our aircraft and the all aluminum Freightliner truck uses solid rivets. Again I'm not saying they are absolutely better but there's got to be something for the majority of the aluminum manufacturing process, when structural integrity in needed they use solid rivets. Maybe with the gauges used after setting them they can be more absolute that every single rivet is up to snuff and correct. Again jigngrub don't take this that I'm putting anything that you're doing as 2nd rate. I'm sure after reading your post your are up to the task, an anything you do will work fine. Are we OK with that part?

 

[kofkorn]

Managed to get the front deck off this morning. The entire thing was glued to each of the supports. Luckily I was able to remove it without damaging the plywood. The plywood on the front deck was in much better shape. I am going to sand it down, and coat it the same as the lower deck. I also picked up a new piece of arauco plywood for the lower deck today. Now I need to wait for the epoxy resin to arrive and then I can start on the building side of the job.

I've started making some measurements of the panels so I can get an idea of how much vinyl I need to order. I may try to layout the pieces in my drawing program so I can get the best fit for all of my pieces with the minimum amount of waste.

I've still got a bunch of cleaning to do to get rid of the remainder of the residue on the panels. But at this point, all seems to be going well.

 

[kofkorn]

One additional question: Does any one know if the Nautolex Vinyl is a directional pattern? Will I need to orient everything the same way, or can I place items as I need to minimize usage?

 

[spotco2]

I would just clean it, scuff it and apply a marine epoxy. You can always water test it in the shop by putting water inside the boat to see if it leaks back out.

I'm glad you are doing these pics. I've got a 90 model that I am gong to have to go through before to long and wondered how some of the interior was assembled.

I would recommend completely replumbing that live well drain. There are a lot of people that have leaks in that area and it is almost impossible to fix without taking half of the boat apart.

Keep up the good work.

 

[kofkorn]

Spotco, the reason that I decided to do the post was that I couldn't find a thread that showed the images of how to take the whole thing apart, and I figured it might be a good reference for others in the future. Glad that I can help. I'll look into the livewell hose. I know from other posts that when the livewell drain goes, you can be looking at a whole bunch of water in your boat really quickly.

I took some measurements yesterday and played around with the layout of the vinyl, trying to figure out how much I need. I don't want to buy too much extra, as there isn't any way to return any less than 3 feet that's uncut.

Here's the layout of the boat as I measured it: The position of the console and seat boxes are approximate.


After playing around with the arrangements, I figure I need about 24 feet of 72" wide vinyl.

That's a LOT more than I was originally expecting to use. I gave myself about a 3" border around all of the original shapes to allow me to wrap the vinyl around the edges and tack it down. This has to be ordered in 3 foot increments. I might be able to reduce it by three feet by not redoing the console and seat boxes, but I might as well do it right...

I have a full scale editable copy of the layout in a .SVG (Scaled Vector Graphic) format if anyone wants it. It can be edited using a free program called Inkscape. Just send me a PM, I can't upload it here.

Now on to the painful step of ordering the material. Oh, well, in for a penny, in for a pound.

 

[kofkorn]

I've been working on the long and tedious task of removing the old carpet backing and glue from the various parts and pieces that were covered. It's been about 4 days of work with about 3 hrs per day. I've been using a sharp chisel to scrape the glue off of the aluminum parts, as the sanding disks and wire brushes are loading up with glue too quickly to make them useful. I'm seeing the light at the end of the tunnel with one seat box, the front casting deck and the front vertical panel left to do. I'm hoping the casting deck goes quickly with a sanding disk, but we'll have to see.

I've got boxes of parts and tools arriving daily. It feels like Christmas already I'm thinking that I'll be starting the rebuild within a week or two. My hope is to be completed before the Christmas break.

I got in a new water pressure gauge and line yesterday along with a trim gauge. Unfortunately, I think the trim sending unit off of the parts motor is bad, which is not something I expected to replace. I'm having a real hard time finding the correct part number to order, as the sending unit is not showing up on any of the parts diagrams online.

Some pictures of the bad unit:


If anyone has a similar part on their motor, can you let me know what the part# might be? Even your model and year of the motor could help me track it down.

Thanks!

 

[jigngrub]

Yes, the Nautolex vinyl is directional... and you can really tell when a piece is turned the wrong way. I saw a pic of some someone had done with a piece turned the wrong way and it stuck out like a sore thumb.

I used 33 linear feet for my 17' deep V.

Remember, the piece you cut out of a hatch hole will not cover the hatch for that hole! You want to have the same 3" wrap on the inside of your hatch holes and on your hatches too. You need to order extra for all of your hatches.

 

[kofkorn]

Well that really bites... the amount of waste that I'm going to have is huge. I'll have to look into updating my order It didn't look directional from the sample pictures I saw, but oh well.

Thanks for the comment on using the cutout for the same compartment. That's what I had planned on. I was going to use the bilge cutout for the livewell covers. The bilge is much larger, so it shouldn't be a problem.

On the good side, I just found the part number for the sending unit. It was in the steering swivel and tilt portion of the parts diagram and very faded and difficult to see. One 0583690 Sender unit on order!

 

[jigngrub]

Sorry about the late answer on the vinyl being directional.

Your top drawing of the boat pieces is how I did my boat, I designated one end of the roll the "bow" and went from there. I originally ordered 27' of vinyl and had to order back 6 more feet. :roll:

You may not have as much scrap left as you think, after all was said and done with mine I had considerably less than a square yard left.

You may want to go ahead and use what you have ordered and then order back when you have less parts to figure, because some of your scrap will be useable on other parts.