onthewater102
Well-known member
Believe what you want, I believe people make mistakes and lie to cover them up to avoid embarrassment.
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I'm always amused a little when I read where people feel like they need 15 rounds in the pistol and two or three extra magazines... these people must live in a war zone. Personally if I were to find myself in a situation where the 7 rounds in my S&W Shield wasn't enough, I'm probably scr***d anyway.
satx78247 said:
satx78247
Well-known member
outonthewater102,
You are perfectly FREE to believe that the US Park Police, who did the "after shooting incidents" investigation LIED to cover-up for the Metro PD, given that the USPP has "considerable antipathy for" DC Metro.
(The DC Inspector General's Office insisted that an outside agency do the investigation.)
As a result of that outside investigation, the USPP ended up buying H&K P7M13 & P7M8 (and a handful of P7M13SD pistols for the Tactical Unit.) semi-autos at more than 2X the price for holsters & leather gear.
yours, satx
You are perfectly FREE to believe that the US Park Police, who did the "after shooting incidents" investigation LIED to cover-up for the Metro PD, given that the USPP has "considerable antipathy for" DC Metro.
(The DC Inspector General's Office insisted that an outside agency do the investigation.)
As a result of that outside investigation, the USPP ended up buying H&K P7M13 & P7M8 (and a handful of P7M13SD pistols for the Tactical Unit.) semi-autos at more than 2X the price for holsters & leather gear.
yours, satx
satx78247
Well-known member
poolie,
AGREED. - I've believed for a long time that IF 5-8 shots, of .38SPL/9mm (or more powerful handgun ammo), isn't enough for resolving an armed confrontation, that it's a job for a riot-gun or a patrol rifle with a long magazine AND back-up units.
(Such a confrontation is called: a fire-fight.)
yours, satx
AGREED. - I've believed for a long time that IF 5-8 shots, of .38SPL/9mm (or more powerful handgun ammo), isn't enough for resolving an armed confrontation, that it's a job for a riot-gun or a patrol rifle with a long magazine AND back-up units.
(Such a confrontation is called: a fire-fight.)
yours, satx
onthewater102
Well-known member
satx78247 said:
Wait, so you're judging an entire line of guns based on an incident that happened 30 years ago when they just hit the market? Were these prototypes? Were they early production that then had redesign? Or were they likely just humans who screwed up and couldn't man up and admit it.
satx78247
Well-known member
onthewater123,
NOPE. NOT prototypes. Just regular model 17, 9mm pistols in new condition, issued with new police duty-type holsters, supplied by Safariland.
(According to the Mayor's Office and the official report of the DC Inspector General's Office, EVERY officer who was issued a 9mm Glock was "fully trained to Metropolitan Police Department Standards" before those handguns were issued for routine use. - I have NO idea what "fully trained" meant, as the DC government signed a "non-disclosure agreement", according to THE WASHINGTON TIMES, to NOT inform the public on the financial settlement on behalf of the injured police officers, with "Glock corporate management".)
A simple YES/NO answer please: Do you actually believe that the "shooting incident investigators" of the US Park Police LIED to "cover-up for" the DC Metro Police, given their intense antipathy for that LE agency?
Tell me: How many incidents that cause wounding of LEO do you need to figure out that Glock pistols are a FLAWED DESIGN that are safe ONLY in the hands of VERY well-trained persons BUT are inherently dangerous for routine use/carry by ordinary peace officers and the general public??
yours, satx
NOPE. NOT prototypes. Just regular model 17, 9mm pistols in new condition, issued with new police duty-type holsters, supplied by Safariland.
(According to the Mayor's Office and the official report of the DC Inspector General's Office, EVERY officer who was issued a 9mm Glock was "fully trained to Metropolitan Police Department Standards" before those handguns were issued for routine use. - I have NO idea what "fully trained" meant, as the DC government signed a "non-disclosure agreement", according to THE WASHINGTON TIMES, to NOT inform the public on the financial settlement on behalf of the injured police officers, with "Glock corporate management".)
A simple YES/NO answer please: Do you actually believe that the "shooting incident investigators" of the US Park Police LIED to "cover-up for" the DC Metro Police, given their intense antipathy for that LE agency?
Tell me: How many incidents that cause wounding of LEO do you need to figure out that Glock pistols are a FLAWED DESIGN that are safe ONLY in the hands of VERY well-trained persons BUT are inherently dangerous for routine use/carry by ordinary peace officers and the general public??
yours, satx
onthewater102
Well-known member
WELL lets see, one person LIES to the other, and no-one can actually PROVE one way or the other what happened BECAUSE all you have for evidence is a guy with a hole in his leg and a gun that has been issued to TENS OF THOUSANDS of police officers across the country.
Here's what I think happened, guy had the gun out, goes to holster it but catches the trigger with his finger, bang, boo-boo, 'oh-no, I look like an *** for shooting myself, it must be the guns fault'
Now, if you're saying the only external safety being a floppy little piece of plastic in the middle of the trigger is a flawed design I'll agree to disagree. It's a piss poor design, but it is functional - but easily defeated by everyday lack of concentration.
Here's what I think happened, guy had the gun out, goes to holster it but catches the trigger with his finger, bang, boo-boo, 'oh-no, I look like an *** for shooting myself, it must be the guns fault'
Now, if you're saying the only external safety being a floppy little piece of plastic in the middle of the trigger is a flawed design I'll agree to disagree. It's a piss poor design, but it is functional - but easily defeated by everyday lack of concentration.
Cali Duck
Member
Name one LE agency that DOESN'T issue glocks...I bet you'll be pressed to find one that doesn't allow its agents to carry Glock.
I'd bet my life on my Glock 19 just as I would my 870. They both go bang - everytime. Any malfunction or someone discharging...has their finger on the trigger, because that is your safety - your trigger finger.
I'd bet my life on my Glock 19 just as I would my 870. They both go bang - everytime. Any malfunction or someone discharging...has their finger on the trigger, because that is your safety - your trigger finger.
satx78247
Well-known member
Cali Duck,
OK.
THE US PARK POLICE,
THE FBI,
THE US MARSHAL'S SERVICE,
DCIS, USACIDC, NCIS, AFOSI & USCGIS,
US ICE,
TEXAS RANGERS,
TEXAS HIGHWAY PATROL & the rest of the TX DPS,
NJ STATE POLICE,
OK STATE POLICE & OSBI
and
SAN ANTONIO POLICE DEPT
That's TEN, just off the top of my head.
How many more would you like?
Note: About 10 years ago, my old agency decided that based on our worldwide mission, the fact that we now have so many women (who generally have smaller hands) in the force & we wanted ONE handgun/type of ammo for all of our personnel, we got permission to buy essentially any handgun that was then available. - USACIDC, after nearly 3 years of testing, chose the SIG-SAUER 226 for everyone.
yours, satx
OK.
THE US PARK POLICE,
THE FBI,
THE US MARSHAL'S SERVICE,
DCIS, USACIDC, NCIS, AFOSI & USCGIS,
US ICE,
TEXAS RANGERS,
TEXAS HIGHWAY PATROL & the rest of the TX DPS,
NJ STATE POLICE,
OK STATE POLICE & OSBI
and
SAN ANTONIO POLICE DEPT
That's TEN, just off the top of my head.
How many more would you like?
Note: About 10 years ago, my old agency decided that based on our worldwide mission, the fact that we now have so many women (who generally have smaller hands) in the force & we wanted ONE handgun/type of ammo for all of our personnel, we got permission to buy essentially any handgun that was then available. - USACIDC, after nearly 3 years of testing, chose the SIG-SAUER 226 for everyone.
yours, satx
Cali Duck
Member
satx78247 said:
I question the accuracy of your list, because I know for a fact - the FBI and US Marshall's Office can carry Glock.
Not to mention the DEA and ATF...
Related article:
https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/department-of-justice-glocks/#glock-22-gen4-1
Regardless what anyone says/thinks, my opinion stands that Glocks are dependable, rugged, accurate and light weight. There will always be doubters of any handgun...like me and revolvers.
satx78247
Well-known member
CaliDuck,
You're welcome to question anything that you like BUT both USMS & FBI "issue weapon" is NOT a Glock, though many federal officers MAY purchase & carry their own firearms. = At one time in my old agency, privately-purchased "Arman Swenson-IZED" Colt's Government Models & Gold Cups in .45ACP or .38Super were quite common in senior agent's holsters.
(As I said, I used to carry a pair of Browning, 1960s-era, High Powers when OCONUS, when a SSA. = I paid for them myself & I was far from alone in "carrying personal arms". - Also, for nearly 2 decades, I carried a double-barrel 12 gauge "sawed off" Fox BE, loaded with #1 Buck in my vehicle. That wasn't "government issue", either.)
yours, satx
You're welcome to question anything that you like BUT both USMS & FBI "issue weapon" is NOT a Glock, though many federal officers MAY purchase & carry their own firearms. = At one time in my old agency, privately-purchased "Arman Swenson-IZED" Colt's Government Models & Gold Cups in .45ACP or .38Super were quite common in senior agent's holsters.
(As I said, I used to carry a pair of Browning, 1960s-era, High Powers when OCONUS, when a SSA. = I paid for them myself & I was far from alone in "carrying personal arms". - Also, for nearly 2 decades, I carried a double-barrel 12 gauge "sawed off" Fox BE, loaded with #1 Buck in my vehicle. That wasn't "government issue", either.)
yours, satx
PSG-1
Well-known member
Not to start a pissing match, but....... here in SC, most all of our law enforcement agencies, including DNR, DHEC, Highway Patrol, numerous sheriff's departments and city PD's carry Glocks.
I've shot a Glock 17, and a Glock 20 in PPC, IPSC and IDPA matches, thousands of rounds fired....and never had any problems with them going off, nor any of the other pistols I shot in competition. Adherence to firearms safety rule #1 and #2 is the reason why.
Modern pistols, including Glocks, have drop safeties, as well as firing pin block safeties. This means that the weapon CAN NOT fire a round unless the finger is on the trigger. I think you'll find that most "accidental discharges" are in fact "negligent discharges" In cases where there truly is a mechanical malfunction, it is often the result of improper maintenance of the firearm.
I've shot a Glock 17, and a Glock 20 in PPC, IPSC and IDPA matches, thousands of rounds fired....and never had any problems with them going off, nor any of the other pistols I shot in competition. Adherence to firearms safety rule #1 and #2 is the reason why.
Modern pistols, including Glocks, have drop safeties, as well as firing pin block safeties. This means that the weapon CAN NOT fire a round unless the finger is on the trigger. I think you'll find that most "accidental discharges" are in fact "negligent discharges" In cases where there truly is a mechanical malfunction, it is often the result of improper maintenance of the firearm.
Cali Duck
Member
PSG-1 said:
This, right here.
Sorry, SATX, you're dating yourself. Appreciate all you've done though, no doubt you've seen more SHTF than I will ever see.
satx78247
Well-known member
Cali Duck,
When you're 68YY, it's HARD to NOT "date" oneself. ====> OTOH, to quote President Ronald Reagan, "I refuse to make sport of you because of your callow youth & inexperience".
(CHUCKLE)
Nonetheless for 90+% of civilians for ARMED SELF-DEFENSE, I believe that those people would be much better served with a 5-6 shot revolver, as most shooters shoot BETTER with a .38SPL Colt, Ruger or S&W.
In 1991, the management of the DOD (the DoD's large installation uniformed security force) Police did a study on "duty weapons for new police recruits" & found that well over 80% of persons, who had NOT previously fired a handgun, learned enough to qualify for law-enforcement duties with (of all things!!) a 4" barreled S&W Model 65 in .357MAG.
yours, satx
When you're 68YY, it's HARD to NOT "date" oneself. ====> OTOH, to quote President Ronald Reagan, "I refuse to make sport of you because of your callow youth & inexperience".
(CHUCKLE)
Nonetheless for 90+% of civilians for ARMED SELF-DEFENSE, I believe that those people would be much better served with a 5-6 shot revolver, as most shooters shoot BETTER with a .38SPL Colt, Ruger or S&W.
In 1991, the management of the DOD (the DoD's large installation uniformed security force) Police did a study on "duty weapons for new police recruits" & found that well over 80% of persons, who had NOT previously fired a handgun, learned enough to qualify for law-enforcement duties with (of all things!!) a 4" barreled S&W Model 65 in .357MAG.
yours, satx
PSG-1
Well-known member
Never tried to date myself....I imagine 'that side' of me is probably a mean b!+ch anyhow!! :LOL2: :LOL2: :mrgreen:
All kidding aside, the reason people do better with a revolver is because its limited capacity stresses marksmanship, making every hit count. Whereas a large-capacity handgun tends to encourage 'spray and pray' since it can shoot faster, reload faster, and hold more ammo.
If you go back through all police shooting statistics over the years, you'll see that in the old days when police carried S&W model 66's as their sidearm, they were pretty decent marksmen, kinda like when our soldiers carried Garands or M-14's instead of M-4's. Back then, most police shootings only involved a couple of rounds fired, just as back in the old days, the 'standard engagement range' in combat was a lot further than 300 yards.
Now with high capacity pistols, you hear of police shootings that involve as many as 10, 15, 20....or in the case of the deaf guy in NYC who reached for his wallet.....41 shots. Or the North Hollywood shootout. One head shot to each bad guy, taken from behind a well-concealed position, would have immediately put down that threat.
There is no reason it should have gone on for 45 minutes, other than piss-poor marksmanship. It's just fortunate that the perps were just as lousy at their marksmanship skills, as no one was killed, despite the several hundred rounds they sprayed with their automatic weapons. I think those 2 scumbags went to the allahu akbar school of marksmanship, where the slogan is "who needs accuracy when you have ammo?"
All kidding aside, the reason people do better with a revolver is because its limited capacity stresses marksmanship, making every hit count. Whereas a large-capacity handgun tends to encourage 'spray and pray' since it can shoot faster, reload faster, and hold more ammo.
If you go back through all police shooting statistics over the years, you'll see that in the old days when police carried S&W model 66's as their sidearm, they were pretty decent marksmen, kinda like when our soldiers carried Garands or M-14's instead of M-4's. Back then, most police shootings only involved a couple of rounds fired, just as back in the old days, the 'standard engagement range' in combat was a lot further than 300 yards.
Now with high capacity pistols, you hear of police shootings that involve as many as 10, 15, 20....or in the case of the deaf guy in NYC who reached for his wallet.....41 shots. Or the North Hollywood shootout. One head shot to each bad guy, taken from behind a well-concealed position, would have immediately put down that threat.
There is no reason it should have gone on for 45 minutes, other than piss-poor marksmanship. It's just fortunate that the perps were just as lousy at their marksmanship skills, as no one was killed, despite the several hundred rounds they sprayed with their automatic weapons. I think those 2 scumbags went to the allahu akbar school of marksmanship, where the slogan is "who needs accuracy when you have ammo?"
onthewater102
Well-known member
I'm not going to put the blame on the lousy marksmanship of the officers...they'd be just as good with their semi-auto's as they were with their old wheel guns if our city and town budgets allowed for them to fire 1/10th the number of practice rounds they used to be required to fire. Top that off with all the sissy piss pots who cry that the police are out using the shooting range and all the noise it makes you have a culture that develops police who are better trained on political correctness dealing with a scumbag no matter what color the piece of sh!t wears on their skin than they are to use their duty weapon.
PSG-1
Well-known member
"Top that off with all the sissy piss pots who cry that the police are out using the shooting range and all the noise it makes you have a culture that develops police who are better trained on political correctness dealing with a scumbag no matter what color the piece of sh!t wears on their skin than they are to use their duty weapon"
Indeed. Marksmanship, both police and civilian, is a dying sport in this country. Due to urban sprawl, as well as the outcries from the granola munchers/enviro-nazis about lead..... many firing ranges have now been replaced with more politically correct driving ranges or golf courses.
Indeed. Marksmanship, both police and civilian, is a dying sport in this country. Due to urban sprawl, as well as the outcries from the granola munchers/enviro-nazis about lead..... many firing ranges have now been replaced with more politically correct driving ranges or golf courses.
satx78247
Well-known member
PSG-1 & All,
When I was stationed in the metropolitan DC area some years ago, a group of three deputy sheriffs & an officer from a small town got into "a running gun battle" with 2 thugs on a rural road, on a nearby farm & in/out of a suburban neighborhood, that lasted over an hour.
(Most, or perhaps none, of you have ever heard about this particular fiasco, as the whole thing was "hushed up" by request of the county/state government. = THE WASHINGTON TIMES published exactly 4 lines "on a back page" about the incident. THE WASHINGTON POST, THE WASHINGTON ENQUIRER & THE BALTIMORE SUN said exactly NOTHING about the incident.)
Based on an "after-action report" by a State police agency, the following was the result of the "gun battle":
1. Five houses were damaged,
2. Eight parked cars were hit,
(One of the police vehicles was "moderately damaged".)
3. A stray dog in an alley was shot/killed by accident,
4. One traffic light was damaged
5. One "above ground swimming pool" was damaged,
6. At least 120 & perhaps as many as 200 rounds of combined pistol, rifle & shotgun rounds were fired by the five "participants" in "the Wild West shoot-out",
7. NO civilians (Thankfully!) were struck by a bullet in the melee,
8. One of the deputies was hit & "lightly wounded" by 2 buckshot
(As far as I know, it was never determined who actually shot the officer by accident, though it is highly likely that it was another deputy who shot him. - Neither thug is thought to have had access to a shotgun.)
and
9. The two thugs escaped.
(The thugs were captured in Henrico County, VA the next day.)
Very quickly, the city/county government "quietly paid for" the damages to the private property that was damaged, as everyone "in government" wanted the "incident" to "just go away".
yours, satx
When I was stationed in the metropolitan DC area some years ago, a group of three deputy sheriffs & an officer from a small town got into "a running gun battle" with 2 thugs on a rural road, on a nearby farm & in/out of a suburban neighborhood, that lasted over an hour.
(Most, or perhaps none, of you have ever heard about this particular fiasco, as the whole thing was "hushed up" by request of the county/state government. = THE WASHINGTON TIMES published exactly 4 lines "on a back page" about the incident. THE WASHINGTON POST, THE WASHINGTON ENQUIRER & THE BALTIMORE SUN said exactly NOTHING about the incident.)
Based on an "after-action report" by a State police agency, the following was the result of the "gun battle":
1. Five houses were damaged,
2. Eight parked cars were hit,
(One of the police vehicles was "moderately damaged".)
3. A stray dog in an alley was shot/killed by accident,
4. One traffic light was damaged
5. One "above ground swimming pool" was damaged,
6. At least 120 & perhaps as many as 200 rounds of combined pistol, rifle & shotgun rounds were fired by the five "participants" in "the Wild West shoot-out",
7. NO civilians (Thankfully!) were struck by a bullet in the melee,
8. One of the deputies was hit & "lightly wounded" by 2 buckshot
(As far as I know, it was never determined who actually shot the officer by accident, though it is highly likely that it was another deputy who shot him. - Neither thug is thought to have had access to a shotgun.)
and
9. The two thugs escaped.
(The thugs were captured in Henrico County, VA the next day.)
Very quickly, the city/county government "quietly paid for" the damages to the private property that was damaged, as everyone "in government" wanted the "incident" to "just go away".
yours, satx
PSG-1
Well-known member
Satx, you've brought up another good point about concealed carry....and that is the liability that comes with any shots fired anywhere except on a designated shooting range. Just like a police officer, a civilian is responsible for each and every shot they take, and any injury, death, or collateral damage it causes. Carrying a firearm is a huge responsibility.
However, unlike a police officer, a civilian does not enjoy the level of protection from civil liability known as "qualified immunity" This means that regardless whether it was a justifiable shooting or not, a civilian is going to have to assume any legal expenses incurred as a result of lawsuits for property damage, or suits from the family of the perp (or "victim" as the PC crowd would define him) A police department will defend their officer's actions, as long as it is determined he was acting within the course of his duties in a lawful manner. But if the officer's actions were not justifiable, indeed, he's on his own, qualified immunity does not apply.
However, unlike a police officer, a civilian does not enjoy the level of protection from civil liability known as "qualified immunity" This means that regardless whether it was a justifiable shooting or not, a civilian is going to have to assume any legal expenses incurred as a result of lawsuits for property damage, or suits from the family of the perp (or "victim" as the PC crowd would define him) A police department will defend their officer's actions, as long as it is determined he was acting within the course of his duties in a lawful manner. But if the officer's actions were not justifiable, indeed, he's on his own, qualified immunity does not apply.
Just a short note on the CCP - - - so many people now are getting the permits
without any actual "training" of accuracy under duress and limited vision (shooting in the dark).
Being retired military, my DD-214 automatically qualifies me for the permit, with no current training
what-so-ever (which is scary) because I have seen so many military that can't shoot worth a ding dang.
After I got my very first CCP long time ago, I took a free training class with Gary Belcher
in Jacksonville, FL Fraternal Order of Police. He had a very colorful career of the Presidential Secret Service,
body guard for foreign dignitaries, etc . . . and he will ENSURE that you are safe - before he signs you off.
His number one point that still sticks with me to this day is - - - - the ORBIT, get the ORBIT !!!
(which is the eye socket). Even a BB from a pellet pistol in the orbit can put down the biggest
bruisers. Then, the .22 can ruin his day, .38 and up - Goodnight Irene !! the threat is DOWN.
Forget about the body mass shot - many bad guys wear armor these days.
A new thread about the North Hollywood shootout would be entertaining, as well as educational
just from what we have learned since then - about what could/should have been done.
.
without any actual "training" of accuracy under duress and limited vision (shooting in the dark).
Being retired military, my DD-214 automatically qualifies me for the permit, with no current training
what-so-ever (which is scary) because I have seen so many military that can't shoot worth a ding dang.
After I got my very first CCP long time ago, I took a free training class with Gary Belcher
in Jacksonville, FL Fraternal Order of Police. He had a very colorful career of the Presidential Secret Service,
body guard for foreign dignitaries, etc . . . and he will ENSURE that you are safe - before he signs you off.
His number one point that still sticks with me to this day is - - - - the ORBIT, get the ORBIT !!!
(which is the eye socket). Even a BB from a pellet pistol in the orbit can put down the biggest
bruisers. Then, the .22 can ruin his day, .38 and up - Goodnight Irene !! the threat is DOWN.
Forget about the body mass shot - many bad guys wear armor these days.
A new thread about the North Hollywood shootout would be entertaining, as well as educational
just from what we have learned since then - about what could/should have been done.
.
